Starting up the car, put the reverse, creep mode on, and the brake does not work

[NigelM]

just a thought - we might want to consider removing this thread from the forums. The last thing Tesla needs is some tit of a journalist getting hold of a braking problem and making two and two make 89.

i have no objection to this - it's done and dusted. Any other takers/comments?

TMC is independent of Tesla and we try not to censor anything unless it's a clear ToS violation such as spam or obscene material. That means you'll find complaints and problems here, but you'll also find lots and lots of happy owners.

 

[Stoneymonster]

I'd prefer we could be open and honest about Tesla, faults and missteps and all.

 

[richrootes]

TMC is independent of Tesla and we try not to censor anything unless it's a clear ToS violation such as spam or obscene material. That means you'll find complaints and problems here, but you'll also find lots and lots of happy owners.

Fair enough - no harm intended

 

[DavidB]

Perhaps the title should be changed to, "Fixed in 6.139: Starting up the car, put into reverse, and the brake does not work"?

 

[wu9991]

I need the new update as well as this happened to me the other day and I almost hit another car. I was pulling forward out of a parking spot, brakes didn't work and a car coming the other way slammed on his brakes to avoid hitting me.

 

[Andyw2100]

I need the new update as well as this happened to me the other day and I almost hit another car. I was pulling forward out of a parking spot, brakes didn't work and a car coming the other way slammed on his brakes to avoid hitting me.

I'm sure you will get the update soon.

But now that you are aware of the problem, until you get the update there is an easy fix. Just wait five or ten seconds after starting your car before putting it in gear, and you should be fine. I'm almost certain the problem only occurs when people start the car and immediately--as in within 3-5 seconds--put the car in gear, before the i-booster (I think that's what it's called) has had the chance to fully charge or boot or something. If you take an extra ten seconds when starting the car, you should be absolutely fine. Of course if you are concerned, don't take my word for this, and definitely call Tesla to confirm, and to ask for the update.

 

[NoMoGas]

I need the new update as well as this happened to me the other day and I almost hit another car. I was pulling forward out of a parking spot, brakes didn't work and a car coming the other way slammed on his brakes to avoid hitting me.

I still say we need to SLOW DOWN. If waiting 3 seconds causes all this "danger" maybe it's a sign we aren't being careful. Hit the brake, start your car, put your seatbelt on and your car will be ready to go.

On another note, isn't this an AWESOME example of Tesla being able to respond to a potential issue quickly, without a recall, without drama and extremely efficiently? Imagine this was your BMW... They'd all be making appointments with service and the months long process would begin. This situation will be clear of EVERY car by weeks end in all likelihood.

 

[Lawsteve]

Since receiving .113, I have not had this issue re brakes, but have had a similar strange issue re power steering. I have creep setting off. On several occasions when I have shifted into reverse to slowly back up, there has been a 1 or 2 second delay for the power to the steering. During those first couple of seconds, the steering wheel is very difficult to turn. Not as big of a safety issue as the brake issue, but annoying.

Hopefully I'll get the .139 update soon and can determine if the issue goes away.

 

[kabirakhtar]

i'd emailed Jerome about the braking issue, here's what he had to say --

"A software release "2.2.116" was sent to your vehicle late yesterday and is scheduled for installation today. This software includes a fix to avoid the condition described in the forums. The referenced software ".139" also contains the same fix. Based on what you wrote, I recommend we bring your vehicle in to one of our service centers for an inspection and evaluation of the braking system to ensure nothing is overlooked." (emphasis mine.)

and sure enough, my S60 got the .116 update last night. also kudos to Jerome for getting Tesla Service to call me and offer to pick up my car and drop off a loaner while they check it out.

 

[wu9991]

While I agree we could slow down, it's still not ok that the car allows it to go into drive or reverse and move while the brakes don't work. Again, love my model S (it is my second one) and not knockin Tesla, they fixed it fast but to say that is user error isn't correct.

 

[NoMoGas]

While I agree we could slow down, it's still not ok that the car allows it to go into drive or reverse and move while the brakes don't work. Again, love my model S (it is my second one) and not knockin Tesla, they fixed it fast but to say that is user error isn't correct.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, cars get idiot-proofed but I remember an older car that the engine would crank without the clutch pressed.. "dangerous?" possibly, but also my own fault for not treating the 3000b deadly machine with the respect it deserves.

I agree it was an easy fix for Tesla to protect us from ourselves, and they did so quickly but in every case here it was cured in the matter of seconds ... well, slow down or change the sequence in starting the car (remember warming up your car before you'd go?)

 

[jcaspar]

Totally agree! Think of how a company like Toyota would (or did) handle this. Denying it and hiding it from consumers till they are given the largest criminal fine in automotive history for concealing safety defects. Nice work Tesla!

On another note, isn't this an AWESOME example of Tesla being able to respond to a potential issue quickly, without a recall, without drama and extremely efficiently? Imagine this was your BMW... They'd all be making appointments with service and the months long process would begin. This situation will be clear of EVERY car by weeks end in all likelihood.

 

[supratachophobia]

Totally agree! Think of how a company like Toyota would (or did) handle this. Denying it and hiding it from consumers till they are given the largest criminal fine in automotive history for concealing safety defects. Nice work Tesla!

Having driven one of those vehicles in that Toyota recall for a decade, I will tell you that the issue was not software related at all. In every case, it was driver error using floor mats (rubber or otherwise) where they did not use the built-in hooks to keep the mat from sliding up to interfere with pedal operation. Their software solution and pedal cutting (yes, that's right, they cut the end of the gas pedal off with a grinder) was a way to placate all the flustered people who though their cars were going to all of the sudden careen off into the sunset. Their "remedy" was set into motion before the findings were even official. But they didn't want to look like they were sitting on their hands. The fuel cut when brake pressed algorithm may be a nice feature and other cars have it, but it still didn't address the total issue the Lexus GX accident had where the mat was stuck under the brake pedal, keeping it from depressing. That was just plain tragic on all accounts yet even with the fuel cut software, if the driver couldn't depress the brake because it was impeded, fuel cut would never be initiated.

Now look at the GM ignition issue. Apparently they found out about earlier yet did the calculation and decided that the lawsuits would be less expensive than the recall.

Regarding the Tesla issue, this is a straight software problem where the car assumes it's state given the available information it has and ignores driver input because it assumed it didn't have to account for it in the first place (state of brake-pedal before putting car in gear).

For Toyota, they answered honestly and said it wasn't a software issue, but then basically went above and beyond in addressing the issue, first with the software, then with the pedal cut, then with a mass market mailer telling you that for heavens-sake, don't use floor mats without the hooks. For GM, they straight up hid the problem. For Tesla, the recognized the car is trying to kill you based on driver feedback, and they released an update to address the problem before anyone got hurt.

And you all still think auto-pilot is a good idea....

 

[Andyw2100]

For Tesla, the recognized the car is trying to kill you based on driver feedback, and they released an update to address the problem before anyone got hurt.

And you all still think auto-pilot is a good idea....

"Trying to kill you?" That is a pretty significant exaggeration. I believe every reported incident involved cars traveling under 10 miles an hour, and at the worst would have resulted in minor damage to the car, and almost certainly no injury to the driver. Unless I'm mistaken, only one person even reported minor damage to the car.

What isn't an exaggeration, though, is the lightning speed with which Tesla addressed the issue. I believe they had a software fix out within 48 hours of when the issue was first brought to their attention, and they were rolling that fix out to everyone almost immediately. It's two or three days later now, and I think most or all cars affected have been updated with the corrected firmware. So how about giving credit where credit is due?

And yes, I do still think auto-pilot is a good idea. Am I planning on breaking out a book to read while I let the car drive itself? No, no I'm not. I'm planning on remaining alert and in control, and using auto-pilot to take some of the burden of driving off of me. I'm hoping that the car can react faster than I can to things that may come up, which should make the car even safer to drive than it is now. And I'm counting on Tesla to quickly work out the bugs if there are any, and to continue delivering the safest cars around, as they've been doing. So yes, I think auto-pilot is a fine idea.

 

[supratachophobia]

Yes, trying to kill you is an exaggeration. But the speed of release is inconsequential. That particular glitch should have never happened in the first place since the natural consequence of it is backing over a small child. The Dev team does a great job, just can't help but wonder if there was a QC procedure in the real world beta testing that would have prevented this so they could have fixed it earlier (pre public release).

And regarding autopilot, I'm glad you are one of the responsible ones. I know for me personally, if I knew the car was going to take over a couple hours of a road trip, I'd want to fall asleep. I think we all underestimate how unengaged we will be by not participating in the driving process. And that will lead to doing anything else other than starring at the road lines pass by.

 

[yobigd20]

But the speed of release is inconsequential. That particular glitch should have never happened in the first place since the natural consequence of it is backing over a small child.

My thoughts exactly. Their software QA team is poor at best. This isn't something to be messed around with by an amateurish release and QA team. The speed at which they released the fix is just as disturbing. And people wonder why so many little patch releases follow major releases. It's obvious that they are rushed, things are NOT tested properly (or at all); their QA and regression testing is practically non existent because of the number (and apparently even severity) of bugs introduced by each new firmware release (edit: starting to sound like Apple here hahaha).

There's just no way they crossed all their t's and dotted their i's before they rushed out these patches too so who knows how many more bugs were introduced. They are fiddling with brake systems here and pushing out new basically untested software across the fleet. It's software. Any experienced software engineer would know that even changing one line of code could potentially expose many other hidden bugs. Even if the logic in the code that's being updated is now programmatically correct, when the software is recompiled it could be laid out in memory differently that suddenly exposes other previously hidden memory bugs aka like memory corruption. If you don't rerun full sets of regression tests over the entire codebase (not just the one line of code you changed) you're basically releasing completely untested code. It's just a massive risk that could have deadly consequences. One overlooked flaw and it could ruin the company permanently.

 

[DavidB]

Yes, trying to kill you is an exaggeration. But ... the natural consequence of it is backing over a small child.

I'm sorry but that is also an exaggeration. You could still put the car back in park at any time.

And regarding autopilot, ... I know for me personally, if I knew the car was going to take over a couple hours of a road trip, I'd want to fall asleep. I think we all underestimate how unengaged we will be by not participating in the driving process. And that will lead to doing anything else other than starring at the road lines pass by.

I suspect that the main reason that all the features of the autopilot are not available yet is because there will be people with this attitude. However, that is not it's purpose. There will always be the possibility of emergencies that will be beyond the programming parameters and will need immediate intervention, so the driver must stay alert. The true purpose of the autopilot is to enable the driver to disengage from the mundane task of staying in lane and to focus more on the surrounding traffic.

 

[supratachophobia]

I'm sorry but that is also an exaggeration. You could still put the car back in park at any time.



I suspect that the main reason that all the features of the autopilot are not available yet is because there will be people with this attitude. However, that is not it's purpose. There will always be the possibility of emergencies that will be beyond the programming parameters and will need immediate intervention, so the driver must stay alert. The true purpose of the autopilot is to enable the driver to disengage from the mundane task of staying in lane and to focus more on the surrounding traffic.

If there is a kid in the rear view camera and I have 5-8 feet of time to stop from running him over, the majority of people are going to keep slamming that brake pedal. The minority, *might* think about putting it back in park.

How is staying focused on the surrounding traffic the point of autopilot? If I'm doing that, I'm just raising my anxiety level constantly. "Should I take over now? What about now? That truck is too close, maybe I should take the wheel? Does the car see that motorcycle back there?"

I think there is a point where autopilot features need to pause until every other car out there is autopilot (not sure where that point is though, maybe it's exit to exit, maybe it's lane departure and smart cruise). And even then, you start to get into things like AI weighted calculations of damage in an imminent collision, and how to choose the lesser of multiple wreck scenarios that would cause least damage to the driver or other driver or dog or property damage, etc. To me these are mind boggling to the point of insurmountable. And I know we won't get there with my attitude, but I feel like the reverse issue didn't help me with my attitude, especially since I've seen kids, bikes, and dogs in my backup camera, but was able to stop in time in other cars.

I drive multiple tens of thousand miles per year and from what I've seen, people are idiots when it comes to their multi-ton killing machines. And it's every driving segment across all makes/models, and all demographics. It would be nice to think tesla owners would make smart choices on the road and hover over the auto pilot, ready to take over at a moments notice. But BMW drivers can't even use something as foundational to safety as a turn signal. Sometimes I wonder if it's an optional feature that most don't get at the time of purchase.

Someone responsible and smart (davidb) should start writing a curriculum/policy/procedure on how to drive a car on auto pilot. There should be tips like, "verify your surroundings before every lane change with your hands on the wheel, ready to take over." And "insure that you still have clear line of sight to your mirrors and blind spots, regardless of your riding posture in the drivers seat."

 

[bigdomer]

This thread is getting out of control. At this point can we limit this discussion to whether .139/.140 has fixed folk's problems?

 

[Krugerrand]

That particular glitch should have never happened in the first place...

Lots of things should have never happened in the first place. Right off the top of my head, candles that smell like farts. I'm sure you can come up with a whole list of things in your life, that you played a role in, that should have never happened in the first place. If we're going to be honest with ourselves and admit to the fallacies of being human. Yep, some of us make bigger mistakes than others. Some of the mistakes are of a serious nature, others are just head-shake worthy. Not really the point, though, eh?

But the speed of release is inconsequential.

The only reason anyone could make that statement is simply because Tesla fixed it so darn fast. For all your talk of children being run over, just how inconsequential is that rapid firmware fix for your hypothetical story telling? Seems to me, and according to you, Tesla just saved hundreds if not thousands of children's lives by implementing a speedy resolution. Yeah, Tesla!