Staying comfortable in Extreme Cold

[Pwdr Extreme]

Cool (I mean hot).

Congrats on getting your car.

Thanks! So far, so good. It was a long road diagnosing the problem with my car, but Tesla finally figured it out and all is well.

 

[Solarman004]

Yesterday I drove the loaner MX P100DL I did all of this testing in back to the service center to finally pick up my MX, YAY! Anyway, I performed a software update the night before. Headed down thru Yellowstone Park temps were averaging around -15 with -27 being the lowest, much the same conditions as my previous tests, it was also dark outside, so no passive heating from the sun. I had the HVAC system set to full auto mode at 72 degrees which worked well in the 30 degree weather 3 days prior (and the last time I drove it). After driving about 50 miles it finally dawned on me I was completely comfortable and the window wasn't fogging up. Not to mention my girlfriend (who is eternally freezing) wasn't even complaining. I verified all of the settings, A/C off, all other settings in auto mode

@Pwdr Extreme , I was skeptical that the latest update would have anything to do with rear heat in the MX. But after reading your post, I tested the heater.
To my surprise, I now feel heat coming out the rear vents (manual mode, temp setting = 75 deg, fan =3).
It is still not as warm as the air in front using the same settings, but it is no longer cool to cold. I'm thinking of cancelling my SC appointment on issue.
Thanks for posting.

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

@Pwdr Extreme , I was skeptical that the latest update would have anything to do with rear heat in the MX. But after reading your post, I tested the heater.
To my surprise, I now feel heat coming out the rear vents (manual mode, temp setting = 75 deg, fan =3).
It is still not as warm as the air in front using the same settings, but it is no longer cool to cold. I'm thinking of cancelling my SC appointment on issue.
Thanks for posting.

That's great to hear! I've been wondering about the rear heat performance myself, I tried it for just a couple minutes in my garage, but nothing more. The right rear vent was blowing quite warm air, the left rear was warm and the front sides were luke warm, but warming up. I didn't sit there very long, but it stands to reason if the heater is in the right rear of the car, the ducts themselves will all take progressively longer to warm up.

 

[ThosEM]

So you set your thermostat to 78F in subzero weather and didn't dress for winter. In summer when it is over 100F, do you also set your AC to 58F and wear your spring jackets, pants, and sox? I do know a few people who think heaven is sleeping under down comforters with the AC blasting on hot summer nights, and of course we all tend to love a roaring fire in an overheated cabin when it is really cold out.

But I've always considered the human body to have a range of tolerable steady but inactive temperatures from about 68F to 78F, if one dresses appropriately with sweater, warm pants, sox and shoes in cooler weather, and short sleeve shirts, shorts, open shoes and no sox in warmer weather. It never occurred to me that human living space should be designed to provide warmer conditions when it is cold outside and cooler conditions when it is hot outside. I guess I just don't yet have the knack of using as much energy as possible in any given circumstance.

 

[jbcarioca]

Thank you for the detailed response. It is very informative. Along those lines, trying to tease out causes and effects: were any of these other ICE vehicles you have driven in this -20degF weather (God that must be cold) 100% Aluminum? I believe aluminum is the second best metallic conductor of heat, surpassed only by copper. So, its fundamentally problematic . Audi A8, newest Ford F150? What else is all aluminum? Isn't there a Jag too?

I think it is likely Tesla never did extreme cold testing on this body, unless Mercedes-Benz did it for them (Mercedes owned 20% of Tesla when the Model S design was being completed) so it wouldn't surprise me if the S and to a slightly lesser extent the X isn't all that good in the extreme cold. Sounds like the HVAC logic needs an extreme cold update at the very least. so it more closely emulates the settings you have described.

Actually they do`. Canada, Norway and Sweden are major markets for Tesla and Moscow has more than 50 of them, not to mention that they're entering Korea, among other very cold places.
I wonder how the Norwegians cope with this? There are many of them here on TMC. From what I recall pre-heat is a major factor there but I don't recall discussions about driving in extreme cold from cabin comfort perspective. This sounds problematical to me. It sounds as if the windows heat loss may be the largest culprit, as well as thermostat setting.

I can sympathise even though the temperature here is 92 F and I just came in from the pool. I did endure adolescence in the frigid North not far away from the appropriately named Hell, Michigan USA

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

So you set your thermostat to 78F in subzero weather and didn't dress for winter. In summer when it is over 100F, do you also set your AC to 58F and wear your spring jackets, pants, and sox? I do know a few people who think heaven is sleeping under down comforters with the AC blasting on hot summer nights, and of course we all tend to love a roaring fire in an overheated cabin when it is really cold out.

But I've always considered the human body to have a range of tolerable steady but inactive temperatures from about 68F to 78F, if one dresses appropriately with sweater, warm pants, sox and shoes in cooler weather, and short sleeve shirts, shorts, open shoes and no sox in warmer weather. It never occurred to me that human living space should be designed to provide warmer conditions when it is cold outside and cooler conditions when it is hot outside. I guess I just don't yet have the knack of using as much energy as possible in any given circumstance.

It appears you have missed the point of my test entirely. For starters, just because the heat was SET to 78, doesn't mean it WAS 78. That's just what it needed to be turned up to in order to be comfortable, basically about 68-70 degrees. And, to answer your "dress for winter" question, I was dressed just like I am every other winter day when I get in any vehicle I happen to own to go to work, dinner, etc. Jeans, shirt, sneakers and a jacket. I'm acclimated to Montana and the colder weather. Being in below zero weather for 10-20 minutes at a time dressed like that is no problem whatsoever. If I'm going to be in the cold all day long, sure, wear the boots, the heavy jacket, the gloves, hat, etc. But my point is I didn't buy a $120,000 car to have dress like I'm snowmobiling while driving it. It seems that is the whole point you are missing. I like my vehicles the same temperature as my home or office regardless of the time of year. And that temperature falls right about 70 in the winter and no more than 74 in the summer. All of my other vehicles have been capable of this, and I wanted to see if my Tesla would be. And no, I don't wear Sweaters, thermal sox, and whatever else you mentioned because I would be way too uncomfortably warm once I arrived in my office at 70 degrees. And I'm not going to change clothes just to drive my car. Maybe you might be comfortable being cold in the winter and warm in the summer and that's perfectly okay. But myself and several others it seems don't want to spend large amounts of money and not be comfortable. We didn't buy Ford Festivas...

If you read my later post you would see that Tesla seems to have addressed the situation I experienced (and others) and are working towards correcting it. Now I can set the HVAC to 70 and be completely comfortable, even though it's -27 outside.

 

[Zythryn]

Definitely not in Range Mode, anything colder than about 30 - 40 or so and range mode doesn't provide enough heat.

Great data gathering and experiments!
Just a couple of notes.

First, I would double check with the service center on the recirculation kicking in on Auto.
Ours does not, in either our S or X. Or, perhaps it is supposed to and I should check with our service center

I get the same discomfort when in range mode, but not in standard mode. You may want to have the service center check into that as well. They can probably check on both via logs, so it may not even require a trip.

I'm in Minnesota here. We recently took a trip similar to yours in length and temps down to Iowa (not elevation changes though).
I experienced the same thing you describe, while in range mode. In standard mode the heater was more than adequate though at 72.

 

[Solarman004]

That's great to hear! I've been wondering about the rear heat performance myself, I tried it for just a couple minutes in my garage, but nothing more. The right rear vent was blowing quite warm air, the left rear was warm and the front sides were luke warm, but warming up. I didn't sit there very long, but it stands to reason if the heater is in the right rear of the car, the ducts themselves will all take progressively longer to warm up.

Pwdr, maybe I didn't understand. Was the rear seat heat test to Yellowstone done in your car after pickup, or in the loaner car?
I think I'm going to keep my SC appointment. Even though the rear seat air is definitely warmer since the software update, it has gone from cold to only slightly warm. But still cooler than it should be when set to 78 deg (for testing), range mode off, and after 30 minutes of interstate driving.
I strongly suspect the diagnosis will be "it is working normally" given the number of other folks also experiencing the weak rear heater.

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

The latest rear heat test was on my new car, sitting in my 40 degree garage and only letting the rear heater run for about 5 minutes or so. By no means scientific at all. My first rear heater test was on the loaner P100D at the tail end of 300 mile round trip in -20 weather. The first time, in the loaner, I never felt warm air, it was luke warm at best. The last time I actually felt warm air out of the rear vents, certainly not as hot as the air coming from the dash vents, but like you said, better than before. I'd suspect there is probably only a few of us that have tried the rear heater after the update, so all of the previous "weak heater reports" might not apply anymore. It would really be interesting to hear if the service center confirmed that the HVAC was indeed updated, and if they know what was changed.

I wonder if the heaters are "capable" of pulling 50 amps, but software limits them to 20 amps or something similar and Tesla can keep turning up the amperage via software?

 

[ThosEM]

It appears you have missed the point of my test entirely. For starters, just because the heat was SET to 78, doesn't mean it WAS 78. That's just what it needed to be turned up to in order to be comfortable, basically about 68-70 degrees. And, to answer your "dress for winter" question, I was dressed just like I am every other winter day when I get in any vehicle I happen to own to go to work, dinner, etc. Jeans, shirt, sneakers and a jacket. I'm acclimated to Montana and the colder weather. Being in below zero weather for 10-20 minutes at a time dressed like that is no problem whatsoever. If I'm going to be in the cold all day long, sure, wear the boots, the heavy jacket, the gloves, hat, etc. But my point is I didn't buy a $120,000 car to have dress like I'm snowmobiling while driving it. It seems that is the whole point you are missing. I like my vehicles the same temperature as my home or office regardless of the time of year. And that temperature falls right about 70 in the winter and no more than 74 in the summer. All of my other vehicles have been capable of this, and I wanted to see if my Tesla would be. And no, I don't wear Sweaters, thermal sox, and whatever else you mentioned because I would be way too uncomfortably warm once I arrived in my office at 70 degrees. And I'm not going to change clothes just to drive my car. Maybe you might be comfortable being cold in the winter and warm in the summer and that's perfectly okay. But myself and several others it seems don't want to spend large amounts of money and not be comfortable. We didn't buy Ford Festivas...

If you read my later post you would see that Tesla seems to have addressed the situation I experienced (and others) and are working towards correcting it. Now I can set the HVAC to 70 and be completely comfortable, even though it's -27 outside.

Ok, I'll concede that my post was a bit snippy and sarcastic and for that I apologize. You are entitled to be snippy in return.

Also I'm glad to hear that it was an anomaly that you needed to set the temperature to 78 to be comfortable. I have not encountered that issue in my Model S, and setting it to 20 or 21C is always sufficient to flow plenty of heat to actually get to that temperature and then back off. I realize it was extremely cold in your test, more so than is likely in Maryland or even New England, where I drive.

The idea of your test is sound and I agree that Tesla vehicles should be comfortably conditioned even in extreme weather. On the other hand, it seems absurd to hold Tesla, as a premium vehicle, to a standard of being capable of obscene energy waste, by which I mean sauna in winter and refrigeration in summer. It's especially galling to compare the effect of such waste on range with that of an ICE vehicle, where obscene energy waste is a given at all times. You appear to be demanding the ability to waste as much energy as you could if you were driving an ICE vehicle, in which case, why bother with a Tesla?

I won't hold Tesla responsible for upholding that particular standard.

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

Ok, I'll concede that my post was a bit snippy and sarcastic and for that I apologize. You are entitled to be snippy in return.

Also I'm glad to hear that it was an anomaly that you needed to set the temperature to 78 to be comfortable. I have not encountered that issue in my Model S, and setting it to 20 or 21C is always sufficient to flow plenty of heat to actually get to that temperature and then back off. I realize it was extremely cold in your test, more so than is likely in Maryland or even New England, where I drive.

The idea of your test is sound and I agree that Tesla vehicles should be comfortably conditioned even in extreme weather. On the other hand, it seems absurd to hold Tesla, as a premium vehicle, to a standard of being capable of obscene energy waste, by which I mean sauna in winter and refrigeration in summer. It's especially galling to compare the effect of such waste on range with that of an ICE vehicle, where obscene energy waste is a given at all times. You appear to be demanding the ability to waste as much energy as you could if you were driving an ICE vehicle, in which case, why bother with a Tesla?

I won't hold Tesla responsible for upholding that particular standard.

I can understand your point of view, although I disagree on a couple points. I don't feel wanting my vehicle to be a comfortable 70 degrees in the winter while driving is an "obscene waste", nor do I feel 70 degrees is like a "sauna". And yes, I do hold Tesla to a much higher standard than what would be acceptable at lower levels. I feel for the price we are paying, we have the right to "demand" certain creature comforts. In a $30k vehicle it might be acceptable to put up with certain "shortfalls" In a vehicle costing 3 to 4 times that amount, I don't feel comfort is an "acceptable shortfall". So I think at this point we can just "agree to disagree"

On a side note, since finally getting my car and putting some miles on it, I've never turned the HVAC above 70, usually it's set at 69. Always been quite comfortable and my average is 425 Wh/Mi for the last 1,000 miles. Not bad considering my daily commute involves driving over a mountain pass each way and my battery is starting out cold-soaked 75% of the time. It hasn't been above freezing yet.

 

[Epymian]

My MX was over 200K Canadian and I find it kind of funny that despite the cold weather option I am often freezing in the car and having to read a forum regarding putting cardboard covers for my windows for insulation and cardboard deflectors for the airflow so my feet are warm as well as trying to set the fan/recirc/blah blah to some arcane configurations to feel warm when it is -10 outside. Here in BC it has warmed up so likely will not get to test the software update to see if it helps but I sure froze my ass off in this car in December. It is encouraging to hear that there is some illusion of hot air flow for the rear passengers now and hopefully next winter will not require me to also purchase a plug in electric blanket as one of the posters stated earlier, possibly for every passenger .

Tesla has done some amazing engineering but the driver foot vent design, the cubby and hutch centre console design, the headrest adjustability design, the middle row folding design, the seat ventilation design and the interior heat designs are not their proudest moment. I think they put the B team on the heating/cooling and the centre console.

I love this car but it was also 3 years in development so I might expect better, especially since the S model would have given them a lot of feedback (and in their defence a lot of stuff on the MX is definitely better than the MS, like the seats and the freaking amazing windshield).

 

[ThosEM]

On a side note, since finally getting my car and putting some miles on it, I've never turned the HVAC above 70, usually it's set at 69. Always been quite comfortable and my average is 425 Wh/Mi for the last 1,000 miles. Not bad considering my daily commute involves driving over a mountain pass each way and my battery is starting out cold-soaked 75% of the time. It hasn't been above freezing yet.

I may be a fanatic. My 50,000 mile/80,000 km average consumption is 296 Wh/mile or 184Wh/km. And I squabble with my spouse over heat and air conditioning quite a bit. ;-) But for a better comparison, it's more like 386 Wh/mi or 240 Wh/km in winter months, and it's mild in Maryland, especially this winter.

Cheers!

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

That actually seems fairly comparable to mine considering it's colder here and there aren't too many mountain passes in Maryland.

 

[RR Runabout]

I take my Tesla X P100DL with all options 20 in tires to the mountains of North Carolina almost every weekend to 4300 feet, pretty high for NC. We have had two notable winter storms with over 6 inches of snow and sub-zero temps..

One of my key complaints is regard to the charging port in the snow and ice... I have the cold weather package, why does it NOT include heating of the Charge Port. It ices up and won't close. I am afraid that it will break trying to get the ice off of it to close it.. Pre-Heating the car does NOT clear the ice.

The X drives amazing well on the ice and snow.. I had to chain up my Volvo XC90 in the same conditions to feel just as safe (about the same tire wear)... I do wish I had a "low" option. Even with the highest regeneration, the hills are so steep by the cabin that I have to break to stop momentum and speed from building up. Climbing the snow and ice covered S-Turns, you can feel each tire working independently to claw its way up the mountain - impressive.

 

[hahler2]

Pwdr Extreme thank you for the extremely informative write up and testing! I live in northeastern South Dakota and am contemplating getting a Model X when it's time to trade off the wife's suburban. I have been looking for some information on how the car would perform in cold weather.

One question, have you been preheating the car when it's at home and plugged in? From what I've read on other threads that will make a big difference in lowering the range penalty from cold weather. It sounds to me though like long road trips, especially around here where there are no super chargers, might not be feasible when it's extremely cold.

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

Most mornings I have it set so that it finishes charging to 90% about the time I'm ready to leave, and I will preheat the car for 5-10 minutes. This definitely makes a pretty big difference. Mornings that I haven't charged and I'm leaving with a cold battery I would guess I eat up another 20-30 miles of additional range on my way to work. I've yet to break 200 miles on a full charge showing 260 rated. I've done 190 and still had about 17 left when I hit the charger. So I would say 200 miles really is the "absolute pushing it to the limit" range in the winter driving normally. Now if you were to drive 55mph and not run the heater you could obviously go more.

If you are stopping in between, like say drive 100 miles, stop for hours or overnight and try to make it back home 100 miles, it's not gonna happen. The cold soak in the battery while sitting will eat up a fair amount of range.

 

[hahler2]

Much as I would like to own one, I'm not sure that a Tesla is in the cards for me yet. The cold weather performance combined with lack of charging options in northeastern South Dakota is a killer. It would be a great daily driver as my wife drives about 30 miles every day for work, but road tripping with the kids in the winter would be a challenge due to lack of superchargers. If I'm going to spend that much money on a car I want to be able to use it whenever I want and not be leaving it in the garage because we have to drive too far. I think if I give it another couple of years to improve the supercharger network and continued improvement in battery technology I'll be a lot happier.

For instance, we live near Aberdeen and travel to Sioux Falls quite a bit. There's a supercharger in Mitchell, SD and almost nothing in Sioux Falls. It's 111 miles to Mitchell, then 73 from Mitchell to Sioux Falls. So we would be looking at 140 miles from Mitchell to Sioux Falls and back to Mitchell again. With staying a couple of nights in Sioux Falls and the car getting extremely cold soaked and doing running around town it doens't sound like that would cut it at all. Now if they built a supercharger in Sioux Falls then that takes care of that problem.

I will own a Tesla someday, just probably not for our next car.

 

[DillyBop]

I take my Tesla X P100DL with all options 20 in tires to the mountains of North Carolina almost every weekend to 4300 feet, pretty high for NC. We have had two notable winter storms with over 6 inches of snow and sub-zero temps..

One of my key complaints is regard to the charging port in the snow and ice... I have the cold weather package, why does it NOT include heating of the Charge Port. It ices up and won't close. I am afraid that it will break trying to get the ice off of it to close it.. Pre-Heating the car does NOT clear the ice.

The X drives amazing well on the ice and snow.. I had to chain up my Volvo XC90 in the same conditions to feel just as safe (about the same tire wear)... I do wish I had a "low" option. Even with the highest regeneration, the hills are so steep by the cabin that I have to break to stop momentum and speed from building up. Climbing the snow and ice covered S-Turns, you can feel each tire working independently to claw its way up the mountain - impressive.

did you immediately swap the tires out after delivery? i know the summer perf tires that come on the P100D aren't giving you that kind of winter performance...

 

[FarmerDave]

Much as I would like to own one, I'm not sure that a Tesla is in the cards for me yet. The cold weather performance combined with lack of charging options in northeastern South Dakota is a killer. It would be a great daily driver as my wife drives about 30 miles every day for work, but road tripping with the kids in the winter would be a challenge due to lack of superchargers. If I'm going to spend that much money on a car I want to be able to use it whenever I want and not be leaving it in the garage because we have to drive too far. I think if I give it another couple of years to improve the supercharger network and continued improvement in battery technology I'll be a lot happier.

For instance, we live near Aberdeen and travel to Sioux Falls quite a bit. There's a supercharger in Mitchell, SD and almost nothing in Sioux Falls. It's 111 miles to Mitchell, then 73 from Mitchell to Sioux Falls. So we would be looking at 140 miles from Mitchell to Sioux Falls and back to Mitchell again. With staying a couple of nights in Sioux Falls and the car getting extremely cold soaked and doing running around town it doens't sound like that would cut it at all. Now if they built a supercharger in Sioux Falls then that takes care of that problem.

I will own a Tesla someday, just probably not for our next car.

Not many options for you in the winter, that's for sure. The only thing I saw in Sioux Falls on PlugShare is Holly Crossing Center, which has a level 2 charging station (free), but you would need to leave your Tesla for several hours to get sufficient charging.