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Steering response: 2017 LR versus 2018 Perf

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Question for everyone, what setting for the steering are you using?
For Model S I prefer Standart, for Model X Comfort and for Model 3 I find it unbearable in anything but Comfort, I wish there would be another setting such as Super Comfort.
Model 3 suspension geometry has a lot of Caster as any sports car should. :) and that makes steering harder to turn.
I'm starting on Sport to get a better feel for what's going on "under the hood", but may try Standard next. Sport is a bit higher effort, and it seems to follow highway grooves with the Pilot Sport 4S tires pretty aggressively. Perhaps Standard may tame that a bit, at the tradeoff of some feel.

The suspension geometry and resulting driving experience generally feels excellent to me.
 
I saw in another write-up of a track day with the P3D+ that they had pretty bad tire degradation with cords showing on the outer edges after a few sessions. Do you have any comments on how the various tires held up?
Depends how one drives. Push any car too hard on the entry into turns and one can chew up the front tires with ponderous understeer. (That can be done in any type of car, FWD, RWD, AWD.) Drive in a more balanced way and the wear will generally be more balanced. It's also usually the fastest way around a track.

"Slow in fast out" means braking hard before a turn, accelerating through a late apex and exiting faster. It generally creates more balanced forces on the tires and is therefore faster overall. It should also result in both higher exit speeds and higher average corner speeds.

(Different turn geometries are approached differently, but the same principles apply: keep the loads on the tires high, but balanced and smoothly transitioned through the changes of direction.)

Any racing or high performance driving school will teach this. How well particular students learn and master it may vary. :)
 
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Picked up my AWD today and I felt the same thing. The mid-engine turn-in feel is gone. The car understeers slightly due to the front motor and I was surprised that I could feel the weight given it's small EV motor compared to an ICE engine. Car is dull to drive now.

Since I live in CA and never see snow, I wish I ordered another RWD car. AWD is also less efficient compared to the RWD.

RWD is around 200 kWh and AWD is around 260kWh. I think given time AWD will be 240 where my RWD is 191.

Screenshot_20180929-200515_Gallery.jpg
 
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@sperkin In my case, with the Model 3 Performance with Performance Upgrade option, some of the energy difference is the tires. Some is aerodynamics, due to lack of Aero wheels. Some is the added weight of the front motor, drivetrain and controller. Some is the energy feeding the front drivetrain, where any added system will have losses. Nothing is 100% efficient, so powering added systems (including the front drivetrain) will lose some efficiency. The latter may be affecting your efficiency, for example.

The energy efficient tires on the Aero wheels have relatively low cornering and acceleration limits, but are probably much more energy efficient.

These are engineering tradeoffs. One can design a system for maximum efficiency or maximum performance. When designing for maximum performance, the efficiency will be lower, and vice versa. Sort of a law of nature and fact of physics, if you will.

If it's any consolation, my first tens of miles in my Model 3 Performance have been over 300 watt-hours per mile, but it's hard not to exercise the insanely high acceleration occasionally. I actually care about efficiency a lot, and realize this is high. But it's also not normal driving. I expect it to be much better when driven more moderately and on long, gentle, Autopilot, Supercharged road trips for example.

I also agree our efficiency will improve over time and driving habits. Your 191 was very impressive on the single motor Model 3. Good driving!


P.S. Any added understeer with the AWD is probably due to the front tires providing some of the forward acceleration due to the front motor. Tires have a total friction limit, often represented by a friction circle. If some longitudinal acceleration is used in a turn, there is less lateral acceleration available. That translates to understeer. It's a reason why front wheel drive cars usually understeer heavily when pushed hard in a turn. You can adjust your driving style to use less forward acceleration in a turn, for example using a different racing line with a late apex. Go to a racing or high performance driving school if you haven't already and would like to learn more.
 
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@sperkin In my case, with the Model 3 Performance with Performance Upgrade option, some of the energy difference is the tires. Some is aerodynamics, due to lack of Aero wheels. Some is the added weight of the front motor, drivetrain and controller. Some is the energy feeding the front drivetrain, where any added system will have losses. Nothing is 100% efficient, so powering added systems (including the front drivetrain) will lose some efficiency. The latter may be affecting your efficiency, for example.

The energy efficient tires on the Aero wheels have relatively low cornering and acceleration limits, but are probably much more energy efficient.

These are engineering tradeoffs. One can design a system for maximum efficiency or maximum performance. When designing for maximum performance, the efficiency will be lower, and vice versa. Sort of a law of nature and fact of physics, if you will.

If it's any consolation, my first tens of miles in my Model 3 Performance have been over 300 watt-hours per mile, but it's hard not to exercise the insanely high acceleration occasionally. I actually care about efficiency a lot, and realize this is high. But it's also not normal driving. I expect it to be much better when driven more moderately and on long, gentle, Autopilot, Supercharged road trips for example.

I also agree our efficiency will improve over time and driving habits. Your 191 was very impressive on the single motor Model 3. Good driving!


P.S. Any added understeer with the AWD is probably due to the front tires providing some of the forward acceleration due to the front motor. Tires have a total friction limit, often represented by a friction circle. If some longitudinal acceleration is used in a turn, there is less lateral acceleration available. That translates to understeer. It's a reason why front wheel drive cars usually understeer heavily when pushed hard in a turn. You can adjust your driving style to use less forward acceleration in a turn, for example using a different racing line with a late apex. Go to a racing or high performance driving school if you haven't already and would like to learn more.

I had AWD cars before and this Model 3 turns just like them. Just surprised that even with a lower center of mass the car still acts like a normal ICE AWD/FWD. I though it would still have the quick dive-ins. The RWD feel very close to my old NSX. The turns are sharp and quick; very agile. RWD feels like a 2500-3000lbs car and the AWD feels like 4000lbs car. I haven't pushed it hard since I'm still going through my old habits of breaking in the car and tires. It'll be on Chill mode until I reach 2,000 Miles. However, I already see the AWD has faster cornering speed due to confidence and grip but the feeling of a light sports car is gone. -My wife noticed my reaction right away when I was on the 1st onramp i took. I must had a disappointing face on me. She asked what was wrong and if I was happy.

As for efficiency, I'm okay if I could get it down to 210-220 kWh. Just also disappointed that it's not as efficient as the Model S' RWD vs AWD where the AWD is better in efficiency. I was blown away by how efficient the loaner P85D was once I hit the highway. Was hoping the Model 3 AWD was the same. Using 1 of the motor that's tuned for highway efficiency.

Anyway, both cars are fantastic and you can't go wrong with either. If anyone wants to save $5,000 and doesn't see snow. I would recommend the RWD. The traction control is great. I have tested it by flooring it from a stop on a hard left turn and the car slips but is in complete control. A Mustang would be doing a 180 without manually counter steer.
 
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I had AWD cars before and this Model 3 turns just like them. Just surprised that even with a lower center of mass the car still acts like a normal ICE AWD/FWD. I though it would still have the quick dive-ins. The RWD feel very close to my old NSX. The turns are sharp and quick; very agile. RWD feels like a 2500-3000lbs car and the AWD feels like 4000lbs car. I haven't pushed it hard since I'm still going through my old habits of breaking in the car and tires. It'll be on Chill mode until I reach 2,000 Miles. However, I already see the AWD has faster cornering speed due to confidence and grip but the feeling of a light sports car is gone. -My wife noticed my reaction right away when I was on the 1st onramp i took. I must had a disappointing face on me. She asked what was wrong and if I was happy.

As for efficiency, I'm okay if I could get it down to 210-220 kWh. Just also disappointed that it's not as efficient as the Model S' RWD vs AWD where the AWD is better in efficiency. I was blown away by how efficient the loaner P85D was once I hit the highway. Was hoping the Model 3 AWD was the same. Using 1 of the motor that's tuned for highway efficiency.

Anyway, both cars are fantastic and you can't go wrong with either. If anyone wants to save $5,000 and doesn't see snow. I would recommend the RWD. The traction control is great. I have tested it by flooring it from a stop on a hard left turn and the car slips but is in complete control. A Mustang would be doing a 180 without manually counter steer.
Totally agree with RWD single motor Model 3 for most people. It's the most efficient, less costly, etc. I could easily live with the single motor Long Range version personally. And yes, agree the feel is a bit different.

RWD Model 3 works fine in snow, especially with snow tires.

Also agree AWD loses some steering feel, but gains traction and acceleration. Those are the kinds of engineering/physics tradeoffs inherent in AWD. Putting power to front wheels asks the front wheels to both steer and power. Adds to traction and speed, but takes away from steering potentially. (Depends how it's driven.)

One can reduce understeer (in any car) by taking a different racing line with a later apex.
 
I had AWD cars before and this Model 3 turns just like them. Just surprised that even with a lower center of mass the car still acts like a normal ICE AWD/FWD. I though it would still have the quick dive-ins. The RWD feel very close to my old NSX. The turns are sharp and quick; very agile. RWD feels like a 2500-3000lbs car and the AWD feels like 4000lbs car. I haven't pushed it hard since I'm still going through my old habits of breaking in the car and tires. It'll be on Chill mode until I reach 2,000 Miles. However, I already see the AWD has faster cornering speed due to confidence and grip but the feeling of a light sports car is gone. -My wife noticed my reaction right away when I was on the 1st onramp i took. I must had a disappointing face on me. She asked what was wrong and if I was happy.

As for efficiency, I'm okay if I could get it down to 210-220 kWh. Just also disappointed that it's not as efficient as the Model S' RWD vs AWD where the AWD is better in efficiency. I was blown away by how efficient the loaner P85D was once I hit the highway. Was hoping the Model 3 AWD was the same. Using 1 of the motor that's tuned for highway efficiency.

Anyway, both cars are fantastic and you can't go wrong with either. If anyone wants to save $5,000 and doesn't see snow. I would recommend the RWD. The traction control is great. I have tested it by flooring it from a stop on a hard left turn and the car slips but is in complete control. A Mustang would be doing a 180 without manually counter steer.

@sperkin, are you coming from a December build RWD or a later build? I’m wondering how much is the suspension change and how much is the drive motor.

Agree that the lightness and fun of the RWD is much reduced. Really a bummer, especially combined with the huge range hit (I am seeing ~300 watthr/mike versus about 220 for RWD).

The Pilot 4S tires do seem to be improving on highway wandering after 1K miles or so. They seem like a really nice street/track trade off. But I’ll be trying other tires as well as adjustable coil overs to try and get some of the feel of the RWD back.
 
It sounds like there needs to be a mode that sends power to the rear wheels until they slip or the rear motor is maxed out. Right now it feels like the torque split is close to 50/50 in the AWD. I wonder if they could even improve the efficiency as well by using the rear motor more.
 
It sounds like there needs to be a mode that sends power to the rear wheels until they slip or the rear motor is maxed out. Right now it feels like the torque split is close to 50/50 in the AWD. I wonder if they could even improve the efficiency as well by using the rear motor more.
I can't speak for the AWD, and I don't have much experience with AWD in general, but my Performance Dual Motor feels like the rear motor is doing much more work than the front, particularly at high power. Maybe the rear bias isn't as strong in the non-P Dual Motor.
 
Ingineerix, a Tesla hacker, looked into battery management system of a RWD in March. He claimed that RWD has an 800A capacity inverter, whereas AWD is 500A (front) + 500A (back). Presumably Performance is 500A (front) + 800A (back).

These numbers are highly plausible, as they match the power required to reach 0-60 times.
RWD vs AWD:
800 / 1000 = 20% faster at the source.
4.5 / 5.1 = 12% faster at the wheel.

AWD vs P:
1000 / 1300 = 23% faster at the source.
3.5 / 4.5 = 22% faster at the wheel.

This also suggests AWD has a 50/50 power split, and P has a 38/62 split. The power split of P is not far from the rated motor power from EPA doc (147 and 211 kW => 41/59).

I do not know if there is a physical constraint (like cable size or actual inverter hardware) for AWD car to get higher than 500A to the rear, or this is purely software (that a P car can be software limited to AWD car, as reported recently). Still, I agree with Daniel that they could improve the efficiency and driving dynamics by using the rear motor more.
 
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@sperkin, are you coming from a December build RWD or a later build? I’m wondering how much is the suspension change and how much is the drive motor.

Agree that the lightness and fun of the RWD is much reduced. Really a bummer, especially combined with the huge range hit (I am seeing ~300 watthr/mike versus about 220 for RWD).

The Pilot 4S tires do seem to be improving on highway wandering after 1K miles or so. They seem like a really nice street/track trade off. But I’ll be trying other tires as well as adjustable coil overs to try and get some of the feel of the RWD back.

Mine was an April RWD build. Both my RWD and AWD is 18" wheel with same tires. It's the weight of the front motor I'm feeling. It's just drives like a front engine car AWD. What I like about the RWD was it felt like my NSX (or a Cayman which was a car I wanted but couldn't get due to 2 seats).

AWD is faster around the corner no doubt but it just feels like a normal sedan to me.

Efficiency is not that bad now. I need more mileage but it's like 5% more energy usage than RWD. I'm comparing both with aero covers off.
 
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You don't really, but it is normal to break in an electric motor/spindle prior to using it for something like machining - however i'm pretty confident Tesla does this "on the bench" before installing the motors.
@sperkin @skrtskrt Yes, Tesla runs both the motors and the fully assembled drivetrains on the car through high power and/or high speed dynamometer runs at the factory. They do that to confirm the performance of those systems. At least they do for S/X and almost certainly also 3. (In addition they may still drive every car on the test track to confirm the performance and function of the entire car.)

Also ICE is totally different with respect to break in. There are oil seals, crank sleeve bearings, cam shafts, valve lifters, etc., all of which need to break in. A combustion engine has literally hundreds or thousands of mechanical bits which all have friction, wear, lubrication, etc., and do need to break in.

An EV basically has roller bearings. A brushless electric motor moves in a magnetic field. The only friction is the tiny amount in the roller bearings supporting the rotor.

Basically no break in for an EV drivetrain should be needed beyond the tests at the factory. It's also why EVs are so much simpler, more reliable and durable.
 
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Ingineerix, a Tesla hacker, looked into battery management system of a RWD in March. He claimed that RWD has an 800A capacity inverter, whereas AWD is 500A (front) + 500A (back). Presumably Performance is 500A (front) + 800A (back).

These numbers are highly plausible, as they match the power required to reach 0-60 times.
RWD vs AWD:
800 / 1000 = 20% faster at the source.
4.5 / 5.1 = 12% faster at the wheel.

AWD vs P:
1000 / 1300 = 23% faster at the source.
3.5 / 4.5 = 22% faster at the wheel.

This also suggests AWD has a 50/50 power split, and P has a 38/62 split. The power split of P is not far from the rated motor power from EPA doc (147 and 211 kW => 41/59).

I do not know if there is a physical constraint (like cable size or actual inverter hardware) for AWD car to get higher than 500A to the rear, or this is purely software (that a P car can be software limited to AWD car, as reported recently). Still, I agree with Daniel that they could improve the efficiency and driving dynamics by using the rear motor more.
Keep in mind driving is highly dynamic. At low power cruising (i.e. typical driving), Tesla almost certainly sends (the low) power to only one motor, and almost certainly the rear one, to divide up the work of the tires better (rears power, fronts steer). If so, then only at high power would the front motor start to get power.

I assume when people are talking about different feel from AWD vs RWD, it's at high power. At low power typical street driving, the feel should be very similar, minus the added front drivetrain weight which will feel like carrying a few 50 lb bags very low and in front.

The P vs non-P rear motor controller (inverter) may be physically the same design, but with better specification and better matched transistors in the P. Also higher burn in power and longer burn in testing on the P controller is done to confirm its performance.

Or they could build controllers with random parts, test and bin select them. I like my theory better. Power transistors are easy to test extremely accurately, so it would make more sense to test, select and match them *before* putting them into the controllers.

The non P car could get smaller power wire, but the main physical constraint is the transistor matching and performance in the controller. In a power amplifier, output power transistor performance is usually the main limiting factor.
 
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