Still baffled by range issue

[PhilRogers]

I love my car (SR+) and I have read the manual. Please don't flame me. I have posted elsewhere, but I am still concerned by range. One bit of background. I got it in April, and actually it already had 600 miles on it when I got it. (It was a demonstrator at the dealer and yes, there was a discount).

I have yet to see rated range. I've had other people say, "Well, you never did in your ICE car either..." Actually, I did. I had a Honda Accord and routinely saw rated range.

I'd just like someone to give me an assurance that what I am seeing is typical and that there's nothing wrong with my car. Here is an example today and I provided photos below. I went for a brief drive this morning. As you can see, the total round trip was 45.9 miles. I used 22% of my power (started at 80%). As you can see from the energy graph, I consistently stayed above the gray line---so I thought I was doing an efficient job.

Now it was hot. In the eighties when I left the house and 91 when I got home. I have seen totally contradictory posts on this. Some people actually contend warm weather IMPROVES range. Others say it has some impact. I was running only minimal air conditioning, so much so that I was burning up.

22% of 240 should be 54. I got 45.9. Not a big difference, but hey, it's eight miles. Yesterday on a longer trip I actually did a bit worse.

If you can tell me this is totally in the right ballpark, I'm fine with it. Maybe truth be known, hot weather DOES have a significant impact on range (I know cold does). Just can someone tell me what you think?

Many thanks,
phil in Chicago

 

[Tam]

...22% of 240 should be 54. I got 45.9. Not a big difference, but hey, it's eight miles. Yesterday on a longer trip I actually did a bit worse...

You might want to switch to miles to compare rather than %.

For example, I need to drive 100 miles and when I am done, the battery went from 300 miles down to 150 miles that meant I used 50 extra more miles on the battery than I actually travel.

That's easy for me to understand so next time, if I want to drive 50 miles, I'll make sure I'll charge up at least to 100 miles or more before I leave.

You can easily achieve EPA numbers if you are disciplined enough to manipulate some factors:

1) Slow down. If 65 MPH is not enough, then 55MPH
2) Abstain from HVAC
3) Good warm weather...

It sounds unrealistic but that's what EPA numbers are. They were designed when there was a gas shortage in 1970's.

It's done on a treadmill and "with an average speed of 48 mph".

Tesla no longer specifies kWh with their batter anymore maybe because people keep calculating and complaining that they don't get the specified kWh for their batteries so Tesla just gives them names like Standard, Standard Plus, Long Range, Long Range Plus...

When you calculate kWh, make sure it's all driving and none stopping time. When you stop (such a round trip), HVAC, Sentry, Vampires are still draining the kWh without moving any miles.

 

[dhrivnak]

I love my car (SR+) and I have read the manual. Please don't flame me. I have posted elsewhere, but I am still concerned by range. One bit of background. I got it in April, and actually it already had 600 miles on it when I got it. (It was a demonstrator at the dealer and yes, there was a discount).

I have yet to see rated range. I've had other people say, "Well, you never did in your ICE car either..." Actually, I did. I had a Honda Accord and routinely saw rated range.

I'd just like someone to give me an assurance that what I am seeing is typical and that there's nothing wrong with my car. Here is an example today and I provided photos below. I went for a brief drive this morning. As you can see, the total round trip was 45.9 miles. I used 22% of my power (started at 80%). As you can see from the energy graph, I consistently stayed above the gray line---so I thought I was doing an efficient job.

Now it was hot. In the eighties when I left the house and 91 when I got home. I have seen totally contradictory posts on this. Some people actually contend warm weather IMPROVES range. Others say it has some impact. I was running only minimal air conditioning, so much so that I was burning up.

22% of 240 should be 54. I got 45.9. Not a big difference, but hey, it's eight miles. Yesterday on a longer trip I actually did a bit worse.

If you can tell me this is totally in the right ballpark, I'm fine with it. Maybe truth be known, hot weather DOES have a significant impact on range (I know cold does). Just can someone tell me what you think?

Many thanks,
phil in Chicago



View attachment 560458View attachment 560461

What wheels do you have. The difference between 18” aero wheels and the 19” is about 5% which could account for most of the difference. And yes the batteries do better when warm but using the HVAC also hurts.

 

[PhilRogers]

Thank you for both of these replies. Oddly enough, another user on a previous thread told me to switch FROM miles to percentage---said it would make me less crazy.

RE: HVAC. You have to use it. Otherwise you'd be miserable. But just let me ask. Do you believe just that minimal use of the air conditioning and the hot weather accounts for the difference in performance? What about the other posters who say warm weather actually helps range????

 

[Zoomit]

Power consumption doesn't increase much between 70 and 90 deg F. Obviously AC power use goes up in warmer weather but it's countered by decreased air pressure (drag) and decreased rolling resistance. Above about 90 deg F the higher AC power use does noticably increase power consumption and range suffers some, but not nearly to the extent that it does in cold weather. Your 222 Wh/mi is very good, especially with 19" wheels/tires.

I have yet to see rated range.

I'd just like someone to give me an assurance that what I am seeing is typical and that there's nothing wrong with my car.

I don't see anything wrong with your car based on the data provided.

 

[Tam]

T...Oddly enough, another user on a previous thread told me to switch FROM miles to percentage---said it would make me less crazy...

Whatever method is easier for you.

When I started a gasoline car with 1/4 full, I had no idea how far it can go. I only knew that I just find a gas station that was less than one or two miles away at most.

Now that I got a Tesla, I got to know whether I can get to a destination or next charger or not. A 1/4 on my 2018 Model 3 is different from my 2012 Model S and 2017 Model X. So, switching to miles is easier for me no matter which cars.

...HVAC. You have to use it...

That's the unrealistic point to reproduce EPA numbers!

Even driving 55 MPH is suicidal on freeways and I might even get ticketed!

It's just unrealistic.

Drive the way you enjoy and don't worry about EPA numbers. Just make sure your driving habit is taken into account so you can reach your destination (mine is 50 miles extra, others 80 or even 100 or even higher). You need to enjoy your own number.

That's why Range is King so get the longest range you can to compensate for EPA numbers.

...Do you believe just that minimal use of the air conditioning...

No, I don't!

If I can't afford it or there's no A/C invention then I just have to tolerate the heat but that's what money and technology are for: To make me comfortable.

...the hot weather accounts for the difference in performance? What about the other posters who say warm weather actually helps range????

Cold weather decreases the battery range. Chemical reactions slow down in cold temperatures. Your car would heat up the battery to compensate for the cold weather. All those factors decrease range and performance.

Your car does not need to heat your battery in hot weather. Chemical reactions in your battery are no longer sluggish. Those factors extend range and performance.

You lose much more range in cold weather by using the heater than using A/C in hot weather.

That's why Tesla is switching heater into heat pump for Model Y.

Conventional heater for S, X, 3 are just a resistor (just like the old filament light bulb) so it costs a lot of energy.

A/C uses an electric motor to move the refrigerant liquid/gas around to cool down your cabin so it costs less energy than a hot resistor method.

Heat pump is a reversible A/C. It transfers the heat inside your cabin to the outside to cool you down in summer and it heats up the outside in the process. In winter, it does the reverse, it transfers the heat from outside into your cabin to heat you up and it cools down the outside in the process. Since it's the same A/C that does not use any hot resistor, the energy cost is the same for summer and winter, hot or cold.

 

[drtimhill]

Thank you for both of these replies. Oddly enough, another user on a previous thread told me to switch FROM miles to percentage---said it would make me less crazy.

RE: HVAC. You have to use it. Otherwise you'd be miserable. But just let me ask. Do you believe just that minimal use of the air conditioning and the hot weather accounts for the difference in performance? What about the other posters who say warm weather actually helps range????

Battery chemistry changes (quantitatively) depending on temperature, and in general this means that warmer weather is much better for mileage (I see 25% difference between summer and winter). However, as it goes from warm to hot you have to factor in HVAC, which then steals energy, pushing your range back down again. Which change wins depends on your driving patterns and the delta between cabin and outside temps.

 

[KenC]

I love my car (SR+) and I have read the manual. Please don't flame me. I have posted elsewhere, but I am still concerned by range. One bit of background. I got it in April, and actually it already had 600 miles on it when I got it. (It was a demonstrator at the dealer and yes, there was a discount).

I have yet to see rated range. I've had other people say, "Well, you never did in your ICE car either..." Actually, I did. I had a Honda Accord and routinely saw rated range.

I'd just like someone to give me an assurance that what I am seeing is typical and that there's nothing wrong with my car. Here is an example today and I provided photos below. I went for a brief drive this morning. As you can see, the total round trip was 45.9 miles. I used 22% of my power (started at 80%). As you can see from the energy graph, I consistently stayed above the gray line---so I thought I was doing an efficient job.

Now it was hot. In the eighties when I left the house and 91 when I got home. I have seen totally contradictory posts on this. Some people actually contend warm weather IMPROVES range. Others say it has some impact. I was running only minimal air conditioning, so much so that I was burning up.

22% of 240 should be 54. I got 45.9. Not a big difference, but hey, it's eight miles. Yesterday on a longer trip I actually did a bit worse.

If you can tell me this is totally in the right ballpark, I'm fine with it. Maybe truth be known, hot weather DOES have a significant impact on range (I know cold does). Just can someone tell me what you think?

Many thanks,
phil in Chicago
View attachment 560458View attachment 560461

Did you stop? Your car is saying that it is performing above rating while driving, ie 222Wh/mile. However, your car uses energy while it's stopped, which DOESN'T appear in the 222Wh/mile. You said it was hot, what is your climate setting when you're not in the car? That can use alot of energy. What is your Sentry setting? That can use alot of energy.

Generally, I would say if you're an efficient driver in an ICE, you're probably an efficient driver in an EV, though there are small differences.

As far as heat is concerned, as the temps warm up, the battery chemistry is more efficient, up to a point. At some point, the battery will need cooling, and likewise, you'll need some cooling. In my non-scientific experience, the car operates most efficiently in the 65F to 80F range, where the battery is warm enough and you are cool enough that no extra energy is being used to heat/cool the driver or the battery. Here's my data, from Stats, that shows a simple linear relationship between temps and efficiency. I think a linear approximation is fine in a narrow temp range, but unfortunately I don't have alot of datapoints in the 90s and above, because I think you'd see the dots start drifting back down. The relationship is likely some polynomial and not a line.

As far as 8 miles go, it'd be easy to lose 8 miles if you stop at a store for a couple hours, and have sentry on, and the interior climate control set to stay on, or in dog mode, etc.

 

[PhilRogers]

Thanks to all for these very informative replies. I do truly appreciate it. I think the heat pump in the Model Y is probably a very big solution. Driving my car and roasting to cut down on battery consumption does not strike me as a blow to fossil fuel use. My friends in gasoline powered cars would laugh at that, and rightfully so. For EV's to truly be on a par with ICE vehicles in all respects, traditional comforts will need to be equal.

Many thanks everyone

 

[PhilRogers]

What wheels do you have. The difference between 18” aero wheels and the 19” is about 5% which could account for most of the difference. And yes the batteries do better when warm but using the HVAC also hurts.

I failed to answer what may have been your best question---about my wheels. I bought the 19" sport wheels because I liked their appearance more---I just don't like the aero covers and the gun-metal grey is not my cup of tea underneath. I have since learned about the mileage loss. On the 240 mile range---5% is 12 miles. So in that regard, 8 miles lopped off the top sounds pretty good right? It means I'm outperforming the loss from my wheels! Good news?

 

[Battpower]

a previous thread told me to switch FROM miles to percentage

Which will focus you away from worrying about absolute miles, but the issue still remains if your driving style and vehicle use is allowing the car to meet the claimed level of efficiency.

Did you focus on this to the same extent with an ICE vehicle? IMO Ev's make it easier and more likely for us to focus on specific numbers in a way we wouldn't otherwise do.

 

[dhrivnak]

I failed to answer what may have been your best question---about my wheels. I bought the 19" sport wheels because I liked their appearance more---I just don't like the aero covers and the gun-metal grey is not my cup of tea underneath. I have since learned about the mileage loss. On the 240 mile range---5% is 12 miles. So in that regard, 8 miles lopped off the top sounds pretty good right? It means I'm outperforming the loss from my wheels! Good news?

Possibly as while wheels and tires do matter so does head winds/tail winds, rain HVAC use....

 

[drtimhill]

Thanks to all for these very informative replies. I do truly appreciate it. I think the heat pump in the Model Y is probably a very big solution. Driving my car and roasting to cut down on battery consumption does not strike me as a blow to fossil fuel use. My friends in gasoline powered cars would laugh at that, and rightfully so. For EV's to truly be on a par with ICE vehicles in all respects, traditional comforts will need to be equal.

Many thanks everyone

I think you are confusing range with efficiency (and $$$). Here in the PNW my M3 gets me the equivalent of about 130MPG, which seems to me a win in terms of $$ and the environment. Especially so as we tilt more and more toward renewable energy sources. Giving up some amount of range for these advantages is, for me, a good trade-off.

As for ICE owners laughing, can they wake up in the morning with their car filled up with gas overnight? How often do they have to take the car in to have an oil change, or fluid changes, or belts adjusted? And all that *engine* noise all the time, what's with that?

In 15 years an ICE car will seem as primitive and quaint as a steam engine

 

[animorph]

Even at a modest temp setting, your A/C compressor may have been running constantly when you first started out in order to cool the car to your set temp and then worked a bit extra as the interior surfaces released heat into the air. We use a constant 70F temp setting here in AZ. We don't see a significant efficiency hit until the outside temp is above 110F. We hit about 90% efficiency (lifetime from TeslaFi logging) compared to rated miles from about 65F to 110F with the Model 3 AWD. That's all local driving in a fairly flat city, and with heavy acceleration/breaking if I'm driving. You already did better than the car predicted, so I'm sure you are fine.

Try your trip in A Better Routeplanner and see how many rated miles it predicts. That will give you an idea of what to expect. We use it when traveling cross-country, when range really matters. Any elevation changes, headwinds, rain or snow, excess speed, or braking can affect your efficiency, in addition to wheels and tires. Sentry use or parking can also eat a few rated miles at 0% efficiency.

 

[PhilRogers]

Even at a modest temp setting, your A/C compressor may have been running constantly when you first started out in order to cool the car to your set temp and then worked a bit extra as the interior surfaces released heat into the air. We use a constant 70F temp setting here in AZ. We don't see a significant efficiency hit until the outside temp is above 110F. We hit about 90% efficiency (lifetime from TeslaFi logging) compared to rated miles from about 65F to 110F with the Model 3 AWD. That's all local driving in a fairly flat city, and with heavy acceleration/breaking if I'm driving. You already did better than the car predicted, so I'm sure you are fine.

Try your trip in A Better Routeplanner and see how many rated miles it predicts. That will give you an idea of what to expect. We use it when traveling cross-country, when range really matters. Any elevation changes, headwinds, rain or snow, excess speed, or braking can affect your efficiency, in addition to wheels and tires. Sentry use or parking can also eat a few rated miles at 0% efficiency.

Thank you. That is a really kind reply and I truly appreciate all the information. As you can see I’m still learning!

Regarding ABRP others have also suggested it. I must be really technically challenged because I finds its interface really primitive and difficult to use. I wish there was a good tutorial. I haven’t found one.

Many thanks for all of the good information!

 

[PhilRogers]

I think you are confusing range with efficiency (and $$$). Here in the PNW my M3 gets me the equivalent of about 130MPG, which seems to me a win in terms of $$ and the environment. Especially so as we tilt more and more toward renewable energy sources. Giving up some amount of range for these advantages is, for me, a good trade-off.

As for ICE owners laughing, can they wake up in the morning with their car filled up with gas overnight? How often do they have to take the car in to have an oil change, or fluid changes, or belts adjusted? And all that *engine* noise all the time, what's with that?

In 15 years an ICE car will seem as primitive and quaint as a steam engine

I think you are really right about that last point! Many thanks!

 

[Battpower]

Regarding ABRP others have also suggested it. I must be really technically challenged

Well the same goes for me.

I used it for a trip through France and it was great being able to set so many parameters as well as prepare the route on my cell then transfer to the car, but it never felt totally smooth to me. I keep looking at abrp to see if I get it better, but not really. It does work and it must be pretty good but not perfect. Maybe needs more perseverance.

 

[SigNC]

Thanks to all for these very informative replies. I do truly appreciate it. I think the heat pump in the Model Y is probably a very big solution. Driving my car and roasting to cut down on battery consumption does not strike me as a blow to fossil fuel use. My friends in gasoline powered cars would laugh at that, and rightfully so. For EV's to truly be on a par with ICE vehicles in all respects, traditional comforts will need to be equal.

Many thanks everyone

To be fair, the AC in the model 3 is virtually the same as the model Y for air conditioning. It's only for heat that the Y has the ability to use a heat pump instead of a resistance heater. It's more complex than that but TL;dr the model 3 and Y should be similar in cooling efficiency.

 

[COrocket]

Driving my car and roasting to cut down on battery consumption does not strike me as a blow to fossil fuel use. My friends in gasoline powered cars would laugh at that, and rightfully so. For EV's to truly be on a par with ICE vehicles in all respects, traditional comforts will need to be equal.

Many thanks everyone

Air Conditioning still impacts ICE vehicles fuel economy. There are several SAE papers that suggest up to 25% decrease in fuel economy in ICE depending on the length of trip and how hard the A/C is run. Whether the A/C compressor is belt driven in an ICE or a motor in an EV, it still takes a noticeable amount of energy to operate A/C.

The only reason it’s more noticeable in a Tesla is because Tesla’s energy consumption computer is much more precise. If a gas car measured fuel economy in ounces, and you drove two trips with and without A/C, there’d be a noticeable difference.

That’s why I just blast the A/C in hot weather and not worry if my car doesn’t get its EPA range. Even if my 130 MPGe Tesla gets knocked down a bit due to A/C usage, it’s still way better than driving a gas car

 

[Jeffrios]

Just remember, even if you turn off the HVAC for the cabin, the A/C is still running when needed to cool the battery.