Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[WestCoastP85D]

It's NOT your fault. We have laws in this country. I bought the same line.... one would call this deception. Certainly the car was not what was described. It's not a communications problem... it was intentionally marketed this way, for obvious reasons.

My situation is a bit different. I owned a P85 at the time of the P85D reveal event. The P85 worked fine for me, but I wanted better top end performance. At the P85D reveal, Musk touted the P85D as having significantly more horsepower. So I placed the order as soon as possible after the event and figured that even though I'd take a hit on the P85 to P85D upgrade, I'd get the top end power I wanted. I took delivery of the car at the end of December 2014 and it was clear that the top end power didn't match expectations. Now, we find out the numbers Musk used at that reveal event were theoretical.

It was certainly my fault for trusting Musk and for buying a car before test driving it. I actually understand the defense that some raise that those who test drove the car knew what they were getting, without regard to what the HP number was. But for those of us who made the decision to upgrade to the P85D based on that reveal event and had some of the first deliveries, I think there's a justifiable sense of being taken for a ride (so to speak). I would not have upgraded to the P85D if the real HP numbers were given at that event, as I would have had a pretty strong hint that the top end acceleration wasn't going to have the type of improvement that the claimed 691 hp implied (and I understand that this is in part marketing hype, but when you are told there's a 50% jump in HP, it's pretty logical to expect a significant improvement in across the board performance).

Again, my fault for trusting the company to deliver what Musk was selling at that event. I could have waited for production to start before placing the order to make sure I liked what was being sold. I learned my lesson...and Tesla lost a customer for future cars (a customer who spent about $250,000 on their products in a 12 month period).

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What legal options should we be discussing? Should we each pursue or should there be some class-action route? The more I think about it... the worse I feel about this. I keep thinking of my sales rep saying over and over again..."691 instant horsepower... the full band....so much broader HP curve across the spectrum, all over 600 hp... blah blah blah. " One would feel this to be intentional deception.

Many months ago I was in the camp of "I've very satisfied with the power, and & don't care about the HP complaints", but, after seeing the numbers from wk057 & sorka (& probably others), that was when I realized I was duped. Actually, I'm still happy with the performance, but now feel very deceived. Here's my thought process, I used the Tesla reported numbers as gospel (since all prior numbers were met/beat), so I used the phony numbers to compare car A to car B (when I ordered my car, in Oct 2014)). As I said above:

Should I buy car A or car B?

per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 691 hp, 0-60 in 3.2 secs, $125k
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, $105K

I didn't specifically care about the number, but Tesla said car A has 274 more horsepower (& Elon said it has 50% more hp). I used these numbers to decide on my purchase, since we couldn't test drive the car for over 3 months.

Now we know this (finally):
per Tesla specs; car A: P85D - 463 hp, 0-60 in 3.1 secs (with roll-out)
per Tesla specs; car B: 85D - 417 hp, 0-60 in 4.2 secs (without roll-out)

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy car A again (after driving both), but since they wouldn't give use the "real" numbers (for a whole year) I based my purchase decision on their specs.

How many people here have bought 3 new Tesla's? I spoke with my dollars and in the future I probably won't, and many people here think I'm wrong? it's my fault? I should've known? I'm a whiner?

What ever happened to truth in advertising? When did the Tesla mission go from sustainable cars to misleading people to buy a P85D (well, to me that happened on Oct 10, 2014).

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People want to support Tesla and what they are doing. I sure have. But this does not feel honest. One cannot help but feel totally duped..... if one would inflate HP numbers of a simple Ford Mustang by 50%, one would sell a lot of them.... until the backlash. What is our path forward?

Well said! It's surprising to me how people still defend Tesla and blame consumers for Tesla's misleading information.

 

[freeewilly]

Do we put what is the car capable of or do we put what its actually producing? What does actually mean?

Again, the common sense to me is how much the engine/motor actually producing on the car they sell you, not the engine/motor is capable of.
Use my exaggerated example. P85d is able to produce 691 hp in the lab, probably using a flux capacitor. In Honda's lab, civic engine is capable producing 1000hp although the live of that engine will be shorten to a couple of hours, but it's doable, you don't see Honda advertise their Civic with 1000hp.


i don't even know why i pick Honda, never owned one in my life.

 

[gsxdsm]

It's NOT your fault. We have laws in this country. I bought the same line.... one would call this deception. Certainly the car was not what was described. It's not a communications problem... it was intentionally marketed this way, for obvious reasons.



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What legal options should we be discussing? Should we each pursue or should there be some class-action route? The more I think about it... the worse I feel about this. I keep thinking of my sales rep saying over and over again..."691 instant horsepower... the full band....so much broader HP curve across the spectrum, all over 600 hp... blah blah blah. " One would feel this to be intentional deception.



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People want to support Tesla and what they are doing. I sure have. But this does not feel honest. One cannot help but feel totally duped..... if one would inflate HP numbers of a simple Ford Mustang by 50%, one would sell a lot of them.... until the backlash. What is our path forward?

Here's what I suggest you do - talk to the sales rep that misled you and let them know your disappointment based on the recent announcement. Take it up the chain w/Tesla until you get a resolution you see fit.

Or sell your car and find something that you're more happy with. See if Tesla will buy it back and make you whole on any depreciation.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There is no lie. It was a different metric for a different technology. Do we put what is the car capable of or do we put what its actually producing? What does actually mean?

Its a question of standards and what is the right yardstickm if we took this same logic and applied it to ALL autos, this would mean that all the automakers change their HP numbers and give me the real power in this case (fwhp, awhp, rwhp) to take everything into account.

That's the way I see it too. It's not that the number is a lie, it's that it was measured it in a way different from what some people assumed. The only real way to solve it is for the industry to come together and have a uniform power measuring method (as with ICE vehicles using an SAE standard, which doesn't exist yet for EVs). Even the "real HP" numbers this thread is talking about is using some sort of measure Tesla made up. Ironically, it appears the "motor power" numbers were the ones that followed an actual standard (ECE R85).

 

[P85DEE]

Here's what I suggest you do - talk to the sales rep that misled you and let them know your disappointment based on the recent announcement. Take it up the chain w/Tesla until you get a resolution you see fit.

Or sell your car and find something that you're more happy with. See if Tesla will buy it back and make you whole on any depreciation.

I agree wholeheartedly with this suggestion.

 

[Brit4864]

As much as I love Tesla and my P85D I can't help but think I've been had when I read it only has 463hp. I paid for 691hp and I didn't get it which ever way you look at it. This is a BIG trust issue and I don't think I can look at Tesla the same way again after this. Yes it's great they were able to achieve 0-60 in 3.1s from just 463hp but if that's the case, why push the 691hp in the first place? If we were told it was 463hp originally, I'm sure we'd all say "wow that's fantastic" and think how great they are to get such figures from a small increase in hp over the P85. I don't think it was miscommunication, I do think it was deliberate. They had to have known it wasn't capable of 691hp a year ago. The question is what do they do now. There were 71 of us who signed onto Andy's letter and others who had individually approached Tesla before. I still hold out hope they will do the right thing and make it right for us early buyers. I'm not made of money (who is?) and this has been the most expensive car I've ever bought but I believed in Tesla and their mission. As it stands, I have a AWD P85+. Not to diminish that but it isn't what I paid for.

 

[aznt1217]

Its about the standards used. You are using metrics based on old ICE tech to fit to something entirely new.

This is going to be even more important with all these hybrid sports cars coming out. Here's the big question, and the guys who own p85d's please chime in. If you didn't see any HP rating at all and just drove your cars. Would you still have bought it?

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As much as I love Tesla and my P85D I can't help but think I've been had when I read it only has 463hp. I paid for 691hp and I didn't get it which ever way you look at it. This is a BIG trust issue and I don't think I can look at Tesla the same way again after this. Yes it's great they were able to achieve 0-60 in 3.1s from just 463hp but if that's the case, why push the 691hp in the first place? If we were told it was 463hp originally, I'm sure we'd all say "wow that's fantastic" and think how great they are to get such figures from a small increase in hp over the P85. I don't think it was miscommunication, I do think it was deliberate. They had to have known it wasn't capable of 691hp a year ago. The question is what do they do now. There were 71 of us who signed onto Andy's letter and others who had individually approached Tesla before. I still hold out hope they will do the right thing and make it right for us early buyers. I'm not made of money (who is?) and this has been the most expensive car I've ever bought but I believed in Tesla and their mission. As it stands, I have a AWD P85+. Not to diminish that but it isn't what I paid for.

What would you like for Tesla to do?

 

[Brit4864]

What would you like for Tesla to do?

Given they said it would be a free OTA upgrade originally, the Ludicrous mode upgrade should be offered for free. While this still doesn't meet the 691hp claim, it would go a long way to restoring our belief in Tesla and their mission. That's all I ask.

 

[perkiset]

This just pisses me off more and more, the people that were happy until they read this set of threads. Are you kidding me? So you had an incredible car right up until someone told you you didn't? Did your car slow down last night?

And the the drum beaters, hell bent on fomenting this distraction. What is the point? I don't believe anyone that says they bought (X) horsepower sight-unseen and it doesn't perform, because that simply means that HP==speed. Which is a fallacy. Did you pre-brag that you could beat anyone with <691HP and now you are the laughing stock? Or are you just looking for a concession from Tesla? What possible value do you derive from this insistent vector other than personal pleasure at making trouble?

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Some people are outrageously ticked off... some people think it's outrageously silly. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. It doesn't make it any more right or wrong if you post it multiple times.

You should re-post that, multiple times.

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This just pisses me off more and more, the people that were happy until they read this set of threads. Are you kidding me? So you had an incredible car right up until someone told you you didn't? Did your car slow down last night?

And the the drum beaters, hell bent on fomenting this distraction. What is the point? I don't believe anyone that says they bought (X) horsepower sight-unseen and it doesn't perform, because that simply means that HP==speed. Which is a fallacy. Did you pre-brag that you could beat anyone with <691HP and now you are the laughing stock? Or are you just looking for a concession from Tesla? What possible value do you derive from this insistent vector other than personal pleasure at making trouble?

What possible value do you derive from reading a thread that pisses you off?

 

[brianman]

This just pisses me off more and more, the people that were happy until they read this set of threads.

Information is a bad thing?

 

[Matias]

There were 71 of us who signed onto Andy's letter and others who had individually approached Tesla before. I still hold out hope they will do the right thing and make it right for us early buyers. I'm not made of money (who is?) and this has been the most expensive car I've ever bought but I believed in Tesla and their mission. As it stands, I have a AWD P85+. Not to diminish that but it isn't what I paid for.

I believe you won't get anything back without legal actions. Various contacts have been made by different customers without a single reply from Tesla. Letter signed by 71 customers got no response.

Then Danish and Norwegian customers started pursuing legal route and suddenly this new development.

I suggest you look for class action lawsuit.

 

[WarpedOne]

Its only the best-known performance measure in the automotive world.

That does not make it right. It is still completely baloney.

What you feel is force caused by acceleration. Show me acceleration chart, everything else is nonsense, hp, torque, rpm, blah, blah, blah.
Same car with same power-plant fitted with different wheels *will* feel different. But have same HP. Also different cars with different HP can have same acceleration. Now what?

So, did anyone saw those basic numbers:
- rpm band with max torque
- rpm band with max power

With this, we can calculate what acceleration looks like in 85D and P85D at various speeds. That chart will directly say everything that is to be said about performance.
Just for kicks, we can throw in a line for say a hellcat with a fairytale automatic transmission that will be in the right gear at every moment.
That will carry some meaning.

Tesla published torque chart for their roadsters year back, unfortunately they discontinued that practice...

 

[rns-e]

There is no lie. It was a different metric for a different technology. Do we put what is the car capable of or do we put what its actually producing? What does actually mean?

Its a question of standards and what is the right yardstickm if we took this same logic and applied it to ALL autos, this would mean that all the automakers change their HP numbers and give me the real power in this case (fwhp, awhp, rwhp) to take everything into account.

Maybe not a lie, but lets all agree, that Tesla withheld information that they new may have had an impact on the sales of the P85D. Tesla withheld information that would put the P85D in a more truthful light.

If you on your dating profile tell people that you are 6'5" and not telling that requires the use of a 1' box to stand on. Then it may not be a lie, but it is not representative for the truth in all situation but the one where there is a 1' box available

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Its about the standards used. You are using metrics based on old ICE tech to fit to something entirely new.

This is going to be even more important with all these hybrid sports cars coming out. Here's the big question, and the guys who own p85d's please chime in. If you didn't see any HP rating at all and just drove your cars. Would you still have bought it?

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What would you like for Tesla to do?

HP is HP and do not care if the HP is produced in a ICE or EV, so stop saying it is a metrics for old ICE tech.

Would I still have bought it, maybe. Bu there is a question back, which one would buy, the P85D with 463hp or the P85D with 691hp, same price?

 

[WarpedOne]

HP is HP and do not care if the HP is produced in a ICE or EV, so stop saying it is a metrics for old ICE tech.

700HP in hellcat is less than 550HP in P85D.
Same?

 

[rns-e]

700HP in hellcat is less than 550HP in P85D.
Same?

Not the same, but if Hellcat was able to deliver its 700hp the same way with no transmission etc as the Tesla it would be another story - but hp is a standard measurement, no way around that.

Will a P85D with 463hp be the same as a P85D with 691hp? I think not, so the HP figure does tell people something, maybe not what you want to know, but still something to the less enlightened buyers like me.

Every car magazine uses the hp figure, so somewhere it has become a form of defacto standard for comparing cars, however wrong a metric people may think it is.

 

[Matias]

700HP in hellcat is less than 550HP in P85D.

Is it?

 

[cynix]

700HP in hellcat is less than 550HP in P85D.
Same?

That is only true for 0-60. 0-60 is not necessarily the only thing people buy cars for.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Oh no! Now that Tesla released the dyno horsepower numbers, they suddenly will accelerate less! They suddenly will no longer beat 750 horsepower hellcats at the drag strip and quarter mile! The end is coming.

Now for the horsepower truthers out there, can ICE vehicles who have 500 hp on their vehicles now sue their own manufacturers since their performance is vastly inferior to that of Tesla?

How can a Tesla P85D or even a p90d beat a Hellcat that does 10.7 sec on the 1/4 mile?

The hellcat is rwd and will need good tires and a good driver to make that time. But still is possible.

TorqueNews Exclusive: Hellcat Charger Runs 10.7, 2.9s 0-60 with DRs (Updated) - Torque News

 

[PaulusdB]

Now that Tesla Motors decided to publish the real HP numbers for P85D, they will most likely take the next step as well. I.e. compensate all pre-November-2015 buyers. Either upgrade to P85L (almost) for free or offer a very attractive upgrade to P90D or L.
I didn't expect the publication of the real HP numbers at all. The only explanation that comes to mind is that Jerome is back from his sabbatical and found new energy to fight for existing customers.
(Alternatively, a tsunami of upcoming good news could be a another reason for resolving this ongoing issue at this point in time. Mentioned somewhere in the short-term TSLA investment thread.)