Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Andyw2100]

Probably a very small number would once they understood the double whammy: tesla wouldn't sell them another car, regardless of outcome... And the probability of significant recovery for the class- low. Now lawyers are another story. They might want to do it if they see a way to get paid.

Tesla should resolve this before it gets to the point that there's a class action lawsuit.

But I would certainly hope that if they don't they would not attempt to prevent customers who felt they were wronged, who were given no option but to attempt to settle things through the legal system, from purchasing their products in the future.

The bottom line is Tesla messed up. It's pretty clear that they know that. Doubling-down by preventing the wronged parties--purchasers of their halo car--from purchasing future products would be a public relations nightmare.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla should resolve this before it gets to the point that there's a class action lawsuit.

But I would certainly hope that if they don't they would not attempt to prevent customers who felt they were wronged, who were given no option but to attempt to settle things through the legal system, from purchasing their products in the future.

The bottom line is Tesla messed up. It's pretty clear that they know that. Doubling-down by preventing the wronged parties--purchasers of their halo car--from purchasing future products would be a public relations nightmare.

Tesla has done that in all the previous known cases of a customer suing them and that didn't seem to have been any sort of PR nightmare. In all cases, the customer obviously is going it feel like they are the wronged party.

I don't know how applicable it is to class actions (Tesla haven't been in a class action where owners signed up, although there have been plenty brought on by law firms).

And with this comment, I do note that the other prediction that Tesla putting such a number would trigger people to think about pursuing a lawsuit has come true.

 

[mobe]

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To state where I'm coming from, I'm a satisfied P85D owner. I've edited this into my long post at

Let's try to make sense of all the numbers we have

which I will repeat here as my comment on this dispute:

In the dispute over the horsepower of the P85D, the most accurate statement is that BOTH the 762 motor HP and the 463 battery-limited HP are significant, and subjectively I think they are about equally significant. From 0 - 30 MPH the car performs like a 762 HP car because its limiting factor is rated engine torque. That's why it has hypercar acceleration off the line. Above 30 it behaves like a 463 HP car, and from 30 - 60 like a 463 HP car with short gearing and multiple gears that keep it right at the peak of its power band. Then at high speeds it falls out of its power band and performs like a less-than-463 HP car. Subjectively, I think we P85D owners have experienced hypercar enjoyment off the line and a bit of frustration at more typical passing power in about equal measure. But I think it's as misleading to say it is only a 463 HP car as it is to say it's a 762 HP car.

,


This is the best explaination yet.
I salute you sir!

 

[Canuck]

Although I am not a lawyer, I think any company that blacklists customers that sue for what could be deemed reasonable cause needs to tread very carefully. I wonder whether there are any lawyers on this board willing to opine.

Tesla has already done this.

Tesla Model X Cancellation

It's also very common and all automakers have such a list. No private company is required to sell its product to whoever who wants it and there doesn't have to be a reason at all but if there is a reason then it can't be based on discrimination. Same with any business. A restaurant, for example, can refuse service to anyone, but they can't based on your race.

Even GM, who took a massive government bailout, has a customer blacklist:

I got put on a GM blacklist - NEED HELP PLEASE!!! - Corvette Forum

The only people who benefit from a class action suit are the lawyers.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[P85DEE]

They arrive at that conclusion because they think the 691hp motor power number is wrong and that the 463hp number is a "correction" to that and see the issue in no other way. The reality is the two numbers measure different things and Tesla still feels the 691hp/762hp number is a valid number. That's why they still have motor power listed and the 463hp number is the footnote, not the other way around (or with motor power completely removed).

That's a very good explanation and every word of it makes sense.

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Tesla has already done this.

Tesla Model X Cancellation

It's also very common and all automakers have such a list. No private company is required to sell its product to whoever who wants it and there doesn't have to be a reason at all but if there is a reason then it can't be based on discrimination. Same with any business. A restaurant, for example, can refuse service to anyone, but they can't based on your race.

Even GM, who took a massive government bailout, has a customer blacklist:

I got put on a GM blacklist - NEED HELP PLEASE!!! - Corvette Forum



You say that like it's a bad thing.

This was one of the reasons why I looked at that letter that those 71 or so people signed a little while back and, wondered if there would be any action taken by Tesla to not sell them anything else.

 

[Auzie]

Although I am not a lawyer, I think any company that blacklists customers that sue for what could be deemed reasonable cause needs to tread very carefully. I wonder whether there are any lawyers on this board willing to opine.

Reasonable complaints are one thing. Repetitively publicly calling company's statements 'lies and deception' and repetitively accusing CEO of dishonesty and lying goes much further than reasonable complaining. I have seen numerous examples of both types of behaviour on TMC threads. Not all customers that complained engaged in such behaviours, but few have.

Being a customer means getting into a relationship with a business, especially if the product is a car that needs ongoing mothership support. When the relationship is irreparably damaged, my experience is that both parties are far better off going separate ways.

In this particular case, it is really up to both parties, not just up to a customer, to evaluate how they wish to proceed.

 

[Hookmaker]

Tesla has done that in all the previous known cases of a customer suing them and that didn't seem to have been any sort of PR nightmare. In all cases, the customer obviously is going it feel like they are the wronged party.

I don't know how applicable it is to class actions (Tesla haven't been in a class action where owners signed up, although there have been plenty brought on by law firms).

And with this comment, I do note that the other prediction that Tesla putting such a number would trigger people to think about pursuing a lawsuit has come true.

Should it ever come to that - which I think is highly improbable - although I love Tesla and my P85D, I would have to say goodbye and sorry to Tesla, for in the next 5 years there will be a load of other options to choose from, so my world would absolutely not collapse anyway.

 

[Julian Cox]

Although I am not a lawyer, I think any company that blacklists customers that sue for what could be deemed reasonable cause needs to tread very carefully. I wonder whether there are any lawyers on this board willing to opine.

I am not a lawyer but I can say that it ought to be obvious that nobody is obliged to get into another contract with a party that sued you over the last one you got into with them. If someone behaves like a dick in your nightclub, you refund them and permanently revoke their membership. Simples.

I mean honestly. Talk about a first world problem. So the car you bought needs a next gen battery pack to take a Bugatti Veyron all the way to 155mph, meanwhile it will only take a McLaren F1 to 100mph, oh the agony. It's not like your breakfast cereal was laced with mercury or your world-saving Toyota Mirai turned out to be a false advertisement for fracking. The take home message I am getting here is that the most powerful AWD versions of this car has more scope to be upgraded than originally thought.

 

[rns-e]

You have be careful with the 500 watt bulb analogy. The Tesla is much more like an high efficiency LED bulb and and ICE is much more like a 500 watt Halogen bulb. The efficiency of how power is used is what is screwing everyone up on this thread and several others. The lumen output or performance is what matters the most. As long as the 125 watt LED can provide me with 10,000 lumens to match or exceed the ~10,000 lumen output of a 500 watt Halogen. I don't give a damn what the HP/ Watts are just that it out performs the 500 watt halogen and does it efficiently.

Tesla has some work to do educating the public on this very simple fact. The fact that it takes a 700 HP ICE to keep up with a 400 HP EV illustrates this perfectly. As the battery tech gets better the delta with grow larger and much like Halogen bulbs - they will slowly be used in limited applications.

Well that does not really work either, since the P85D does not perform like a 700 hp ICE. It performs more like a very low geared 500 hp ICE.

 

[WarpedOne]

It performs more like a very low geared 500 hp ICE.

For example?
I'd like to so what 500HP ICE machine beat P85D in a drag race.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Audi RS7 is not so far on weight (4500 pounds) and has very close 0-60 and 1/4 mile time when looking at test specs on Motortrend. And that is using a less effective ICE engine and a gearbox and drivetrain with higher losses. The RS7 has 560 engine hp and about 470hp at the wheels from the dyno results I have seen.

 

[Julian Cox]

Well that does not really work either, since the P85D does not perform like a 700 hp ICE. It performs more like a very low geared 500 hp ICE.

I would second that. If you add the concept of an extremely smooth and progressive throttle response at times when you are not caning it that is exactly what the P85D in Insane mode feels like - except from 0-30mph at peak power where the performance numbers are undeniably better. There is also that nagging sensation when repeatedly caning a big V8 off the line that you know you are simultaneously reducing the life of the engine considerably and calling for unwanted attention from the cops. The Tesla feels more effortless and more fit for purpose when it comes to pure driving enjoyment.

I have not driven the Ludicrous mode P90D but my impression is that extending that 0-30 g-force to 0-60 and adding 20% to the 60-100 would make all the difference in the world. I guess even then it does not feel like a 762Hp ICE vehicle but then again it isn't one and it has nothing like the price tag of one either despite beating them all 0-60 and most of them from 0-100 while being equally suitable for a daily commute or a family camping holiday. Oh and there's the autopilot thing and the fact that a in a collision between a Ferrari and a Tesla all that would remain would be the Tesla.

 

[sillydriver]

I mean honestly. Talk about a first world problem. So the car you bought needs a next gen battery pack to take a Bugatti Veyron all the way to 155mph, meanwhile it will only take a McLaren F1 to 100mph, oh the agony. It's not like your breakfast cereal was laced with mercury or your world-saving Toyota Mirai turned out to be a false advertisement for fracking.

it has nothing like the price tag of one either despite beating them all 0-60 and most of them from 0-100 while being equally suitable for a daily commute or a family camping holiday. Oh and there's the autopilot thing and the fact that a in a collision between a Ferrari and a Tesla all that would remain would be the Tesla.

+100 :biggrin:

 

[rns-e]

For example?
I'd like to so what 500HP ICE machine beat P85D in a drag race.

I said a very low geared 500 ICE. The Model S has an advantage when it comes to the gear ratio, when we are talking acceleration. So lets take a Audi RS7, it has a eight-speed Tiptronic automatic transmission with the following ratios:

1st - 4.714
2nd - 3.143
3rd - 2.106
4th - 1.667
5th - 1.285
6th - 1.000
7th - 0.839
8th - 0.667

Now, someone may be able to help with the math on this, but how would the RS7 accelerate if the ratios were like this:

1st - 9.730
2nd - 6.474
3rd - 4.338
4th - 3.434
5th - 2.647
6th - 2.060
7th - 1.728
8th - 1.374

Would it be faster than a P85D from 0-60 mph and still do 155 mph?

 

[WarpedOne]

Not enough data for a meaningful answer.

It is not just gear-ratios. It is also about gear-change delays and every other tiny detail that needs its time.
Fact is there is *no* 500HP ice that is quicker than p85d.
What would be if it would be ... fairy tales.

 

[rns-e]

Not enough data for a meaningful answer.

It is not just gear-ratios. It is also about gear-change delays and every other tiny detail that needs its time.
Fact is there is *no* 500HP ice that is quicker than p85d.
What would be if it would be ... fairy tales.

But there are plenty that are faster and quicker above 80 mph, so change in gear ratio, which was what I said initially would make them behave more similar

 

[lolachampcar]

WO,
How about a 500 hp small block bracket rail? It is a 500 hp ICE

The failure here is the attempt to use the same raw metric to compare an apple to an orange. Motors are not engines.

 

[JonG]

Not enough data for a meaningful answer.

It is not just gear-ratios. It is also about gear-change delays and every other tiny detail that needs its time.
Fact is there is *no* 500HP ice that is quicker than p85d.
What would be if it would be ... fairy tales.

well not many

Seven 620r | Caterham Cars

although in fairness I'd not take my parents on holiday in one

 

[gavine]

This video sure makes all of this horsepower talk kind of silly and irrelevant, doesn't it?

 

[ERP]

It is not just gear-ratios. It is also about gear-change delays and every other tiny detail that needs its time.
Fact is there is *no* 500HP ice that is quicker than p85d.
What would be if it would be ... fairy tales.

Wow, this is completely wrong. Maybe you meant to put in an asterisk with the limitations that the car must have four doors and weight over 4500 lbs.

You don't need 500 hp to beat a P85D in the 1/4 mile. A 410 hp Lotus Elise (361 whp) can do it; 11.47 sec at 123 mph, http://darksol.com/
Thus guy has been working on his Elise for years and kept a very detailed record of upgrades and performance. Most of the work he has done is not needed to hit those track number, the main upgrade was the BOE Rev400 kit which takes hp from 190 to 400 for $7850.