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Stripped Down Model S in the works for Ontario?

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Dante, Dec 17, 2016.

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  1. Dante

    Dante Member

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    I remember reading a few months ago that Tesla had designed an optioned-down Model S for some European country in order to allow buyers to qualify for EV incentives in that country.

    Wondering if anyone has heard/come across any plans for Tesla to do the same in Canada/Ontario? The new Ontario EV incentives are capped once the MSRP reaches 75k, and completely disappear once you hit 150k. Considering the cheapest new Model S you can buy is around 90k CAD at the moment, could/would Tesla offer an optioned down Model S60 that would have an MSRP of 70-75k, but be missing some currently standard features that you could upgrade to as options?

    The Ontario EV incentives are capped at 3k off if the MSRP is 75-150k, but that excludes taxes, options, and delivery. For anything under 75k, there is an incentive of 14k off (13k for the battery size, and 1k for the 5-seat capacity). If Tesla found a way to discount the car by 15k by making some standard features options, with the expectation that most people would add these options right back, they have little to lose, and it would make more people able to afford their currently available car. Considering all the effort they're putting into trying to convince Model 3 reservation holders to upgrade to an S60, this seems like a somewhat obvious decision, especially if they're already doing it in another country to get around their incentive caps.
     
  2. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

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  3. BluestarE3

    BluestarE3 Active Member

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    Setup a battery leasing model with the option to buy after a short term. Cost of battery isn't part of the purchase price, but owners can later buy the battery outright at a near equivalent price to what they would have paid if the battery had been included in the initial car price. The additional cost of going the lease/purchase route for the battery would need to less than the value of the incentive.
     
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  4. hingisfan

    hingisfan hingisfan_Mark_V

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    Isn't battery size part of the rebate tho?
    Might still work, I like the idea. Anything to get an S with 14k cash back!
     
  5. BluestarE3

    BluestarE3 Active Member

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    I don't know anything about the Ontario rebate, so I can't answer that. However, if it's based solely on the price of the car, I can envision an invoice for the purchase of the car itself and a separate lease agreement for the battery.
     
  6. Duckjybe

    Duckjybe Member

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    Given the fact that the EVIP program will likely change soon, I think it would be prudent to wait for the changes at this point. They were supposed to come in Jan. 2017 but it looks like that won't happen. Changes are much needed given the fact that a BMW X5 40e plug in hybrid gets an incentive of $8.2K and a Tesla Model X gets $3K even though the BMW well to wheels CO2 emissions is about 15x more!! The BMW has dual exhaust pipes for Pete's sake. And I don't buy the argument that the wealthy are the only ones buying Teslas and that they don't require incentives. With an incentive program like this the wealthy buyers will be purchasing the BMW X5 plug in hybrid which is NOT a good use of the EVIP funds and NOT the best vehicle for achieving our emissions targets.
     
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  7. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    This was first suggested (by Wayner I think) ten months ago and Tesla never took action, even when it would have been easier by $4,000 to reach the 75K goalposts.

    Also, the limit seems designed to screw Tesla in favor of Ontario-based manufacturers and dealers, so Ontario would probably alter the rules again if the S qualified for the full amount.

    Protectionism at its worst. Just like awarding 57% of the 20 million dollar charging station program to KSI, a shady outfit that has never installed a single DCFC. The only reason is that KSI has an office in Mississauga and the reputable firms they were competing against are out of province.
     
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  8. Dante

    Dante Member

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    Yes, the incentive is based on battery size, but the cutoff is ridiculously low... something like 16kWh for $10k rebate, $3k more if the battery is >16kWh, and an extra $1k for 5 seat capacity.
     
  9. Dante

    Dante Member

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    Coming from a former Liberal voter, I'm so fed up with Wynne and her cronyism. You look at the positive things they announce, and then you realize that it's just more money sent to fill the pockets of Liberal supporters who rip off the people to funnel the money right back to the Liberal party. 2018 can't come soon enough so we can get rid of this corrupt party.
     
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  10. Dante

    Dante Member

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    I thought they just changed the EV incentive program in February?
     
  11. Duckjybe

    Duckjybe Member

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    Yes they did and it was 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

    I just learned from a friend who bought a Cayenne SE Hybrid for his wife that in addition to the 3K incentive rebate they received from the government, Porsche gave them an additional $5500 off because they are trying to move the plug-ins likely so they can reach their CAFE /ZEV requirements. Some have speculated (including Bob Lutz) that Tesla will not be able to compete on price because the other car companies will be dumping there EV's at a loss. This certainly seems to be the case.

    What is sad about our friends purchase is that they received a green plate and a heck of a government induced discount but they DON'T EVEN PLUG IT IN! These are wealthy people but did they just go out and buy a Tesla? No, because they don't want a change in their car ownership behaviour. I argue the incentive program is certainly not equitable for Tesla and the $75,000 MSRP limit and incentives for small battery hybrids is hindering the program.
     
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  12. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    Back in late 2012, I actually tried to convince them to sell me the car and battery as separate items ("batteries not included") to see if I could avoid the import duty since the car wasn't (isn't) NAFTA-eligible. The problem was the value of the Japanese battery cells in the car that pushed it over the North American content restrictions. I figured I could get the car without the duty and only have to pay it on the battery pack. They wouldn't go for it.
     
  13. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    The full amount actually kicks at 16 kWh. By a strange coincidence, the Windsor-made Chrysler minivan with 16 kWh, was announced shortly before the program change, so it qualifies for the full 14k. Note the impact on some companies which manufacture in Ontario:

    1) GM The Volt is 16 kWh and even gets the 1k bonus for its new mini 5th seat. The last remaining Cadillac ELRs qualified for 13k. Talk about rewarding mediocrity. There is about 13k off the Bolt.

    2) Toyota. They were supposed to eliminate rebates for cars with miniscule batteries like the 5 kWh one in the old Prius plug-in, but instead they raised it!

    Of course, other PHEV or BEVs also benefitted, like XC90, 330e x5 drive, etc. Their active dealer lobbies must be happy. Note that some of these cars cost over 90k fully loaded for their 30km AER, but the program goes by their base cost which is usually $74,999-
     
  14. wayner

    wayner Active Member

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    Thanks for giving me the credit! They really should do this although if they get it just under the threshold they will continually have to make changes due to FX fluctuations, assuming that the C$ continues to depreciate.
     
  15. sitter_k

    sitter_k Member

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    As an owner of an xc90, the base price is no longer sub $75k
     
  16. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    I remember when the S first came out, they has a sub $50k (US) version. I know someone who bought one. 40 kWh pack, cloth seats, plain halogen (not HID) headlights etc. It was even without some of the chrome trim on the front grille. Tesla killed that one pretty quick.
     
  17. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    I guess if you can get last year's model which qualifies for an $8,777 rebate, it's a very good deal, then.

    Returning to the protectionism theme, the Ontario rebate requires you purchase from an Ontario dealer, whereas the QC one only forces you to buy in Canada. A few people in Gatineau bought Smart EDs in Ottawa and I know several i3s had to be "imported" from the Toronto area to meet demand in QC since initially there were three authorized i dealers in Ontario, but only one in QC.

    Since allocations of Bolts are supposedly based on Volt sales, most of stock will go to QC, so the wait may be longer for Ontario residents.
     

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