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Studless Ice and Snow tires vs. Performance Winter snow tires; what's right for me ?
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EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I second this question. Doc, what do you recommend for us up in the Pacific Northwest where winter primarily means 30F - 50F and wet, very wet, with an occasional 3" - 6" of snow.
I'm debating between running a performance snow or a good A/S as a dedicated winter setup.
The primary advantage of a "dedicated" snow tire is the that the rubber compound is formulated to stay flexible down below freezing to enhance ice traction (the additional siping and other tread features don't hurt either). An all season tire will give up a little snow capability to a dedicated snow tire, but the difference in ice traction would be more noticeable. Read our test results here to gain some insight. Granted neither of the tires tested are "high performance" oriented, but you'll get the idea of the differences in snow.
In most cases, we recommend a good all season tire for your part of the country with the understanding that traction will be compromised in severe weather. Naturally, all the other cars on the road with all season tires will be in the same boat.
I did a lot of rather obsessive research on this exact topic about three weeks ago. The conclusions were as follows:
The Pirelli's are a "Texas snow tire" - they may do fine with a light dusting, but you can do better.
The two tires that rose to the top out of every discussion were the Xice3 Michelin's and the Hakka 2's. While many claimed one edged out the other and vice versa, not a single source regretted either option.
I will say that I chose the Xice3's because they had a claimed 40K tread life rating (not sure if the Hakka's made any claim, I did not find it). I purchased a set of 4 from Costco and I am not displeased with any aspect of them.. I've used them on icy rain, deep snow, thin snow, and wet asphalt. Paired with the excellent traction control I feel they were well worth the purchase and I think they are an excellent snow tire.
Coming from truck tires, I can't speak to the Xice3's in the mud, but they are my first snow tire on a car with this much power. I was not expecting the weaker side-wall, but have since gotten used to it. Under hard acceleration and the primacy tires, the car normally wants to sway side to side even though you want it to go in a straight line. This effect is amplified even more by the sidewall strength (weaker or more supple depending on how you want to spin it) in the snow tires it seems. I'm not mad, sad, disappointed, etc. though. It's winter and I was expecting some trade-off in performance.
The Pirelli's are a "Texas snow tire" - they may do fine with a light dusting, but you can do better.
The two tires that rose to the top out of every discussion were the Xice3 Michelin's and the Hakka 2's. While many claimed one edged out the other and vice versa, not a single source regretted either option.
I will say that I chose the Xice3's because they had a claimed 40K tread life rating (not sure if the Hakka's made any claim, I did not find it). I purchased a set of 4 from Costco and I am not displeased with any aspect of them.. I've used them on icy rain, deep snow, thin snow, and wet asphalt. Paired with the excellent traction control I feel they were well worth the purchase and I think they are an excellent snow tire.
Coming from truck tires, I can't speak to the Xice3's in the mud, but they are my first snow tire on a car with this much power. I was not expecting the weaker side-wall, but have since gotten used to it. Under hard acceleration and the primacy tires, the car normally wants to sway side to side even though you want it to go in a straight line. This effect is amplified even more by the sidewall strength (weaker or more supple depending on how you want to spin it) in the snow tires it seems. I'm not mad, sad, disappointed, etc. though. It's winter and I was expecting some trade-off in performance.
1. Put some air in the tires.
2. Put a bit more in the rear.
3. Brand new tires still have some mold release on them (and perhaps the mounting lubricant hasn't dried). Drive gently for the first 300-500 miles.
4. One of the things that increases traction in snow tires is that the carcass and tread are flexible so that they wrap around uneven road surfaces allowing more of the contact patch to actually touch the road.
1-2. I am hesitant to inflate above the recommended limits.
3. 2k miles on the tires, still the same experience.
4. Again, don't mind the difference anymore. Just not initially expected.
The vehicle placard pressure is not a limit (I don't know where people get this idea, but it's just not true). It's what the vehicle manufacturer believes will give the best service, but it's based on some assumptions that don't apply to every situation. One of the assumptions made is that it's 18 C (65 F) outside. If it's higher you need to adjust the pressure upwards, if it's lower and you inflate indoors (or the compressor is indoors, you also need to adjust the pressure upwards. Another assumption is that you are doing a pressure check every driving day, if you don't there needs to be enough pressure in the tire so that you don't go below.
There is a limit for cold inflation pressure, and it's printed on the sidewall of the tire.
Model S does not need snow tires
I like several others on this forum have gone through back to back VERY tough winters in New England with my Model S with the stock all season tires. To put things in perspective for others in the world, in the last 3 weeks we've had storm(s) of 34+, 24, 20, 18, 16 and 6 inches.....yes that is over 100 inches of snow....in 3 weeks. Cars are buried everywhere and road conditions have been aweful (2 lane streets reduced to 1 lane). The MS with stock tires does not has never spun out, lost control, or got stuck....unlike the SUVs or front wheel drive cars on the road.
So, because of the amazing stability & traction control of the electric drive train of the car, it has handled these horrible horrible conditions without any hiccup. We can even go up slushy hills (where you cannot see the ground) albeit in a manner I've never seen before in a car. I also debated about getting the Michelin ICEs last year but wanted to test out the stock tires first, never needed to. I do switch out the stock all seasons for 20" aftermarket extreme performance summer tires though.
Please also keep in mind that the OP works for a tire reseller.....
I like several others on this forum have gone through back to back VERY tough winters in New England with my Model S with the stock all season tires. To put things in perspective for others in the world, in the last 3 weeks we've had storm(s) of 34+, 24, 20, 18, 16 and 6 inches.....yes that is over 100 inches of snow....in 3 weeks. Cars are buried everywhere and road conditions have been aweful (2 lane streets reduced to 1 lane). The MS with stock tires does not has never spun out, lost control, or got stuck....unlike the SUVs or front wheel drive cars on the road.
So, because of the amazing stability & traction control of the electric drive train of the car, it has handled these horrible horrible conditions without any hiccup. We can even go up slushy hills (where you cannot see the ground) albeit in a manner I've never seen before in a car. I also debated about getting the Michelin ICEs last year but wanted to test out the stock tires first, never needed to. I do switch out the stock all seasons for 20" aftermarket extreme performance summer tires though.
Please also keep in mind that the OP works for a tire reseller.....
My experience has been that when new the Miichelin Primacy OE tires are barely adequate. In fact, they didn't make it up my driveway and I had to remove the ice before I could park. Winter road conditions vary immensely due to a variety of factors and roads that are passable now may not be passable fifteen minutes later. I didn't trust the OE tires for a second winter so I put on some WR-g3 tires (severe service all seasons). So far though there hasn't been any winter conditions (perhaps because I put them on). Forecast says there should be an ice storm tonight or tomorrow, so perhaps I'll get a chance to test them out. I've used WR series tires in the past with great success.
I have been extremely happy with the Michelin Xice3. We get a lot of unplowed roads, salty slush-ice combos, etc. around here... the temperature has been below freezing for weeks on end, going down below 0F... and we have steep hills.
I have never lost control with the Xice3. Once, before the snow tires were available, I did lose control going downhill on ice with the stock all-seasons -- mine are the Goodyears, which are really quite nice. (There are three different stock 19" tires, delivered on new cars during different time periods.)
I have had to disable traction control to get up steep, slushy-icy hills. Took me three tries before I figured that trick out. :-(
I have never lost control with the Xice3. Once, before the snow tires were available, I did lose control going downhill on ice with the stock all-seasons -- mine are the Goodyears, which are really quite nice. (There are three different stock 19" tires, delivered on new cars during different time periods.)
I have had to disable traction control to get up steep, slushy-icy hills. Took me three tries before I figured that trick out. :-(
The snow we've gotten this year has been atypical in texture--lighter, with very cold roads to start. This is now my third winter with my Model S, and despite the record volumes, it's also been the least taxing for driving. I'd recommend snow tires here in New England as a general matter. Also, "snow tires" are better described as "winter tires" and are made with compounds that retain their flexibility to lower temps. I've really noticed this difference between my wife's BMW 535xi on all-seasons and my Model S; her car feel like we're driving on the rims when it's been below zero.
Some other points to consider:
- You'll go through several sets of tires, so you might as well be driving on tires suited to each season.
- Having an extra set of rims at hand gives you the option to carry a full-size spare (albeit, mismatched tires).
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I have a P85D and went with the Tesla winter wheel package, which included those Pirelli Sottozero IIs. I've also done lots of reading here, and concluded weeks ago that when I replace the Pirellis it will be with the Hakka 2s. But this is what I'm wondering...
I know that the Hakka 2s will help significantly with traction for getting up hills in the snow, etc. But how much better than the Pirellis are they for keeping the rear end from coming loose when going around turns, or for helping to not slide when braking to a stop? I ask because frankly I've been pretty disappointed in how easily I've been having little issues when it's really slippery, at low speeds, with the first all-wheel drive car I've ever owned. I know the Model S is extremely heavy, and I'm trying to determine if the car is so heavy that what I'm experiencing is unavoidable on any tires, or if with the Hakkas it's going to be a lot better.
When it's pretty slippery, I'll slide a bit coming to a stop, even if I slowed very reasonably from, say 15 MPH. Sometimes the rear end will come loose coming around a turn at 10 MPH. I haven't been in any dangerous situations yet, but some of them have scared me a little, as the idea of my 5000 pound car sliding is not a pleasant one. In every situation I'm talking about, my front wheel drive Acura with snow tires would not have slid at all.
What I'm asking boils down to is it the physics of the heavy car or is it the less than optimal winter tires? Based on the first post I know that the Pirellis are a performance winter tire, not a true snow tire. I'm wondering if a true snow tire like the Hakkas can stop my 5000 pound car from sliding so much.
Thanks!
There would be no doubt that R2 or X-Ice I3 would be better. Also check the pressure in your current tires. No real ice days this year so far, maybe today there will be, but last year on the Primacy tires I had no problem with the back end sliding out (I did have problem with traction on my driveway's steep incline.)
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Because it is Physics, what you are interested in is the coefficient of friction of the tire on the surface of interest. Stopping, starting, or lateral acceleration (turns) are determined by the coefficient of friction and is independent of weight.
That being said, my P85D on Hakka R2's is the best winter driving setup I have ever had. I don't have a lot of ice experience, but those limited encounters were uneventful. Lot's snow experience on everything from slush to fresh powder, and those have all been great!
When Tesla offered me a loaner 2WD S on the Pirelli's this winter, I just said no. It's too bad because in the winter of 2012/13, Tesla offered the Nokian Hakka 7's as an option, and they still offer the Nokian Hakka R2's as an option in Norway.
I have a set of ~50% used, 2.5 year old Hakka 7's (studded) that I will sell for a pittance over shipping cost if anyone is interested.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Thanks. That is comforting.
I did check all my tires. They were all at around 43.5. I inflated them all to 46 PSI.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
We were posting at the same time earlier, and I din't see this until now. (Sorry!)
I've watched the video of you taking your P85D up your driveway in the fresh snow. Impressive!
Perhaps they'll offer the Hakka 2s again before I'm ready to purchase them. If not, I hope they'll at least be willing to mount them, since they sell them in Norway. (I've read about issues people have with respect to getting Tesla to mount tires they don't sell.)
Thanks for the info!
I've watched the video of you taking your P85D up your driveway in the fresh snow. Impressive!
Perhaps they'll offer the Hakka 2s again before I'm ready to purchase them. If not, I hope they'll at least be willing to mount them, since they sell them in Norway. (I've read about issues people have with respect to getting Tesla to mount tires they don't sell.)
Thanks for the info!
ModelS1079
Member
I agree with Robert, but should note I am enjoying my third Winter without snow tires - about 25,000 miles of winter driving (Dec 1- March 21st), 53,000 miles total. I have had no problem, but there is a caveat:
I love riding on new tires - like a new pair of shoes, they just feel great on the car. Also, I drive 25,000 miles/year. So, each Fall I buy a new set of (non-winter) tires, around October. Best time of year for driving, seems to me. Hitting the farm roads of New England, Sunroof open and Fall Colors all-around, new tires - nothing better. I save the cash on new rims and winter tires, but benefit from having rather new tires on the car all year, and they have been very effective in the snow. I'd be reticent to recommend this for others (After the fender bender, I can just see your post title: "No Thanks to MoronS1079"), but this has worked very well for me.
Enjoy.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I've only had my 85D for a few weeks and I have the factory Pirelli SottoZero tires. Only one snow storm (ice and about a foot of new snow) and they performed flawlessly... couldn't even tell I was driving on ice and snow.
Of course, this is mere anecdotal evidence (like most of the reports in this thread), so YMMV.
Of course, this is mere anecdotal evidence (like most of the reports in this thread), so YMMV.
4700lb car, I did a lot of homework. I want to drive safely even in the most bitter winter, as the Model S is my only car.
Therefore, based on not one Canadian's experiences here I cancelled the Sottozeros and went with the Thai made Michelin X-Ice.
They seem softish, but that was my impression with other winter tires too, and they always outlast their summer counterparts.
When my OEM all-seasons wear out, I will get a high perf. summer tire set to put on from April to October here in OH.
Therefore, based on not one Canadian's experiences here I cancelled the Sottozeros and went with the Thai made Michelin X-Ice.
They seem softish, but that was my impression with other winter tires too, and they always outlast their summer counterparts.
When my OEM all-seasons wear out, I will get a high perf. summer tire set to put on from April to October here in OH.
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