Subaru's eyesight seems to work better than Tesla's AP

[Mr. Burrito]

With all the hype around autopilot, I figured it would be one of the best systems as far as basic functionality that other manufacturer's have (what Tesla calls "traffic aware cruise control"). The only similar system I've owned is on a Subaru Forester (called "Eyesight"). Here's the issues that I've come across on my 2020 P3D- (autosteer off, standard regen) that I've not experienced with the Subaru driving on the same roads:

• On a 65 mph highway, the cruise control suddenly believes that the speed limit is 30 mph and massively slows the car. This only happens for a handful of seconds, then shows the proper limit of 65 mph. It does it again a few miles down the road (but this time 55 mph for a few seconds).
  
  
• Passing a car on a 2-lane highway above the cruise set limit and then letting off the throttle to slow down (to use regen to slow the car) and the system starts to get on and off the "throttle" making the car jerk backwards and forwards even though speed is still above the set limit.
  
  
• On a 55 mph 2-lane highway, someone turns in front of me from the opposite direction (from a turn lane) but not in a way that is unsafe. The car suddenly starts braking but only after they are no longer in the road.
  
  
• The manual does mention that the system may not work correctly with "sharp curves" but something that did not occur with Eyesight is that on what I would call more moderate curves (45 limit on a 55 2-lane highway), the Tesla does this, again, jerky motion where it suddenly slows for a second and then speeds up.
  
  
• Eyesight seems to be able to recognize cars at a much greater max distance than Tesla's system. Eyesight will start to slow down the car (let off the throttle) when it sees cars braking in the distance whereas the Tesla doesn't recognize them until much closer and has to slow down more severely.
  
  
• Eyesight also does this but not as bad -> someone in front of me pulls into a turn lane off to the right (on a 65 mph highway) and the Tesla suddenly starts braking/slow down severely with no car in front of it.

I will say that the auto high beams are vastly better on the Tesla than the Eyesight which was pretty useless. Also, I like the scroll wheel for adjusting speed much better on the Tesla than the +/- switch on the Subaru, although I wish there was an option to turn on cruise control to the current speed and not related to the speed limit (let me know if there's a way to do this). Also, I would like to use basic cruise control at times on the Tesla (no dynamic cruise control) but can't seem a find a way to do this.

 

[YusufT]

I mean you didn’t even have autopilot on you just had TACC. Also never experienced any of these issues except for when I let go of the accelerator and tires slid a bit with max regen on wet roads, not really the cars fault.

"Lane Keep Assist" - Telsa vs. Subaru Eyesight (My experience)

 

[camalaio]

Oh boy. Prepare yourself. You spoke ill of AP on these forums, that never goes well

I agree with most of your assessment. The fact we can't get it to ignore bad map data for speeds can be annoying. It is jerky with speed changes, doing both the hard braking and sudden acceleration you mentioned especially on true speed changes. Many say this is because the car is doing it so it seems rougher to the driver, but passengers notice too and you don't have this complaint about Subaru.

You'll be blasted for the left turner thing though. Not "supposed" to use AP in areas with potential cross traffic. That said, yes that delay is normal. AP seems to react to everything about a second or two late. Even the visualizations are late (notice cars traveling the opposite direction have passed you before they reach the front of your car on screen).

The slowdown for those in turning lanes is also allegedly a feature for letting others merge. Of course, it does this at inappropriate times and aggressively so. Fully agree.

 

[Victoria3]

You have to think in terms of what you see vs what the computer sees when you try rationalize some of the odd behaviour of autopilot. I have experienced the left turn thing as well and it was starting...but think about it...car is traveling 60mph and suddenly there is something (the turning car) in the way 200-300ft ahead. You the human (undeniably a superior learning computer to the Tesla computers) can see the car will clear the path comfortably without any slow down, but the Tesla sees something that if it doesn't start immediately braking, and hard, it's going to hit. This is why we are still so far away from reliable self driving. The computers lack anticipatory behavior. So while we might be close to self driving, we're very far from a smooth experience.

 

[David L]

Uh oh, you're going to need backup. Where @jebinc (OP of a similar thread)?

I own a 2016 Outback with Eyesight. Eyesight must have gotten a lot better though the years, because using ACC on the highway with that car is like playing a game of chicken with merging, slow, and stopped cars (my wife literally can't watch because it makes her anxious). Whereas with AP, she can't even tell if it's me or AP controlling the car. One thing that really irritates me about Subaru is that they refuse to upgrade the Eyesight firmware, although I know it's possible, because it has happened once as a byproduct of an ECU recall that required a firmware reflash.

 

[Mr. Burrito]

I mean you didn’t even have autopilot on you just had TACC.

According to the owner's manual, TACC is a function of Autopilot:
"These Autopilot convenience features are designed to reduce driver workload:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on page 78)
...

 

[Mr. Burrito]

You have to think in terms of what you see vs what the computer sees when you try rationalize some of the odd behaviour of autopilot. I have experienced the left turn thing as well and it was starting...but think about it...car is traveling 60mph and suddenly there is something (the turning car) in the way 200-300ft ahead. You the human (undeniably a superior learning computer to the Tesla computers) can see the car will clear the path comfortably without any slow down, but the Tesla sees something that if it doesn't start immediately braking, and hard, it's going to hit. This is why we are still so far away from reliable self driving. The computers lack anticipatory behavior. So while we might be close to self driving, we're very far from a smooth experience.

Yeah, totally agree but I'm comparing it to another manufacturer's system which appears to work better (at least with my driving conditions).

 

[Mr. Burrito]

I own a 2016 Outback with Eyesight. Eyesight must have gotten a lot better though the years, because using ACC on the highway with that car is like playing a game of chicken with merging, slow, and stopped cars (my wife literally can't watch because it makes her anxious).

I think it is a newer generation of Eyesight on the 18 because it has lane keeping assist (which I always left off cause it sucked) and auto high beam and presumably other improvements for that generation.

 

[YusufT]

According to the owner's manual, TACC is a function of Autopilot:
"These Autopilot convenience features are designed to reduce driver workload:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on page 78)
...

When I say autopilot I mean auto-steer and TACC on. The speed changes are just bad map data

 

[Mr. Burrito]

You'll be blasted for the left turner thing though. Not "supposed" to use AP in areas with potential cross traffic. That said, yes that delay is normal. AP seems to react to everything about a second or two late. Even the visualizations are late (notice cars traveling the opposite direction have passed you before they reach the front of your car on screen).

Fair enough. It wasn't any traffic lights but the odd turn lane on a mountain highway. I've used Eyesight on the same roads without experiencing this.

 

[Mr. Burrito]

When I say autopilot I mean auto-steer and TACC on. The speed changes are just bad map data

Could be or maybe a bad GPS location where it thought I was on a side road for a split second or something? I wish I could just turn off the speed limit part of this and just set my own speed. Probably an unfair comparison to the Subaru as it does not use any speed limit data.

 

[camalaio]

Fair enough. It wasn't any traffic lights but the odd turn lane on a mountain highway. I've used Eyesight on the same roads without experiencing this.

I uses to use it in the same conditions (haven't for a while because snow). If I couldn't use it on highways like that, this would be the first car I've had that doesn't support cruise control on normal highways! But that's what some here believe - it's only for freeways with exits. Must be nice to live in an area with a nice freeway system.

 

[David L]

I think it is a newer generation of Eyesight on the 18 because it has lane keeping assist (which I always left off cause it sucked) and auto high beam and presumably other improvements for that generation.

2016 was the first year with LKA. I’m sure Subaru has been improving the EyeSight firmware, because the ECU reflash my Outback got (in I think 2017) definitely improved the system vs. what came with the car. I just wish it could have continued to get updates. Lack of software updates is one thing that handicaps ADAS development/experience of other automakers compared to Tesla.

 

[jebinc]

Uh oh, you're going to need backup. Where @jebinc (OP of a similar thread)?

I own a 2016 Outback with Eyesight. Eyesight must have gotten a lot better though the years, because using ACC on the highway with that car is like playing a game of chicken with merging, slow, and stopped cars (my wife literally can't watch because it makes her anxious). Whereas with AP, she can't even tell if it's me or AP controlling the car. One thing that really irritates me about Subaru is that they refuse to upgrade the Eyesight firmware, although I know it's possible, because it has happened once as a byproduct of an ECU recall that required a firmware reflash.

@David L
Here's the thread you mentioned.

"Lane Keep Assist" - Telsa vs. Subaru Eyesight (My experience)

I have not read this one yet as I've been moving parents into assisted living facility and prepping their house for sale.

I can say, now that I own a 2020 Outback XT Limited with new 2020 Eyesight system, that the 2020 rendition of auto steering/LKA does give my Model 3 AP/TACC a run for it's money. In fact, the Subaru actually does some things better. Slowing down to, and accelerating from, zero MPH is very much like how a driver would do it. Recall the Tesla AP/TAAC was a dog restarting and we all have to give it "extra peddle"? Not the case with the 2020 Eyesight, as it worked correctly from the first release.... When road lines go away or can't be seen, the 2020 Eyesight system turns it over to you with a beep and HUD indication (yeah, it has a HUD so you don't have to look way from the road and over to the 11.6" UI/screen) ==> then, auto engages when it can "see" the lines again. With the model 3, I have to manually slap the stalk down to get it to reengage. I should also point out that only the Eyesight Autosteer disengages, not the dynamic cruise control functions. This makes the driving experience nearly seamless as you are supposed to have your hands on the wheel at all times, anyways. With the Model 3, you have to constantly think about and manage the "stalk" manually while looking at the UI to see if your stalk slap was effective (instead o the road).

 

[JoDe]

Eyesight in Subaru 2020 is much better than eyesight in 2016 - have a Tesla Model 3 and a 2020 outback. With FSD I feel much more at ease in the Tesla than using 2020 eyesight. There are some thing eyesight does better but auto steer is not one of them and I personally thing the TACC is better than eyesight in stop and go traffic. Just my opinion. I also do have a list of things the Tesla doesn’t do better but not for this thread

 

[Yang_H]

Very interesting. After getting my SR+ (w/o FSD) I really enjoyed AP and have decided that when we replace my wife's car the new car must come with AP function at least as good as Tesla. Buying another Tesla is tough as she needs a SUV and we probably won't be able to wait for Model Y while Model X is too expensive for the car it is (plus I hate its falcon wing with a passion).

So I have been thinking about other cars, EV or ICE, that come with similarly competent AP functions. My internet research points to that AP on 2020 Hyundai/Kia SUVs has been the closest to Tesla based on the reviews. Curious to know whether anyone know how Hyundai/Kia compares to Subaru.

 

[powertoold]

Do these AP competitors work well on winding roads (like mountains)?

Tesla's challenge is to have AP work well on any road, so naturally, a competitor's system may work better on the highway since it's only made for highways...

 

[Yang_H]

There are myriad of limitations/conditions for those AP from different manufactures. For instance, some only work at speed above certain mph, etc, etc. Just by googling for reviews I found it really hard to have clear and straightforward comparisons of them to Tesla.

 

[camalaio]

Do these AP competitors work well on winding roads (like mountains)?

Tesla's challenge is to have AP work well on any road, so naturally, a competitor's system may work better on the highway since it's only made for highways...

Tesla's system is terrible for winding roads. It crosses lines with AutoSteer (including the one separating opposing traffic) and lacks confidence for speed management around corners with TACC (with or without AutoSteer, worse with it), slowing down way too much and wandering throughout the corner.

I believe they call it out in the manual to not use it on winding roads.

Tesla is trying to generalise to all conditions apparently, but they really only do exceedingly well with clear weather on straight freeways with gentle curves. The competitor systems manage the same conditions fairly well.

 

[Yang_H]

I only have my SR+ w/o FSD for three weeks and 1k miles, but so far I have found its AP quite decent on winding routes here around Pittsburgh.

It failed once predictably when the intersection is on a hill top so there is no way the car could see that the road pass intersection immediately turns left so it ran straight ahead after crossing the intersection. I was predicting this to happen and corrected it manually. But overall, driving around 30-40mph on winding roads up and down with AP has been fine. AP turning on sharp curves could be made smoother, also I'd prefer that it slows down a bit before entering a sharp curve.