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Sudden braking occurring during autopilot

Discussion in 'Model S' started by plasmo, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. plasmo

    plasmo Member

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    I have had a handful of instances of sudden braking during autopilot driving on highways (not during stop and go traffic like another thread had mentioned) where there clearly is uncongested traffic. My wife always yells at me when this happens and I take over the car immediately at this point. Is this something that others have seen or do I need to take this into the shop? Thx
     
  2. ftlum

    ftlum Member

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    You’re probably going under an overpass where there’s a shadow fooling the autopilot. People have said making your follow distance shorter helps prevent the phantom breaking.
     
  3. berkeley_ecar

    berkeley_ecar S 90D (fully loaded) delivered 18 Mar 2017

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    This has happened to me, but rarely, and generally in association with encountering the shadow from an overpass. Another circumstance in which I've seen it happen is when approaching a large patch in the roadwork which is much darker in color than the surrounding pavement. It's clear why this might also fool the computer vision system underlying AutoPilot.
     
  4. Altes

    Altes Member

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    also prevents phantom braking
     
    • Funny x 1
  5. Saimaannorppa

    Saimaannorppa Member

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    I’ve seen this. My wife yells at me too, and taking her to shops clearly lessens the unwanted behavior.

    Phantom braking, haven’t had any since I can’t remember when. My car used to be afraid of tunnels, but that was 6 months ago.
     
    • Funny x 2
  6. Shateam

    Shateam Member

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    I'm in the middle of a road trip and have experienced one instance of phantom braking while driving at highway speeds. Scared the sh!t out of me and my passenger. I don't think I was approaching an overpass from what I remember. A few minutes prior to this I did get the "beep beep beep beep" warning with nothing apparent in front of me. Not sure if that was related.

    Would help to know what FW and HW version you're on.

    I'm on 2018.28.5 / AP 2
     
  7. tread

    tread Member

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    Austin, TX
    This is what's been triggering phantom braking for me. There are a couple of spots on Austin highways where it happens pretty reliably if I travel at the same time of day with same weather.
     
  8. redy

    redy Member

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    Have had phantom braking maybe 2 times in the last year I've had the car. Not sure of the circumstances.

    I use follow distance of 4 mostly and 3 occasionally.
     
  9. plasmo

    plasmo Member

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    LOL! Yes, i concur that taking her purse shopping makes her forget about this quickly.

    Yes, it might be underpass bridges that is triggering this... I will pay attention of this when it happens again. I DO remember that it was nice and sunny when the phantom breaking occurred, so it might have been the bridge shadow people are talking about.
     
  10. Enginerd

    Enginerd Member

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    I had around 10 of these events while driving 400 mi yesterday. Some of them were clearly shadow/contrast in the daytime. Of the several at night, some aligned with I-95 exit ramps. But probably most occurred at the start of a "bridge" (in SC, the type hardly distinguishable from a standard side rail). I'm going to start submitting them as bug reports. Maybe we'll eventually see some progress on this front. I know my wife won't be tolerant, no matter how much shopping I offer up.
     
  11. kgroschi

    kgroschi Car Reviewer from Germany

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    SoCal
    Same issue since very recently. Quite annoying.
     
  12. kenperkins

    kenperkins Member

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    Just got back from our first trip with our S from Fremont delivery to home in Seattle. Had two clear incidents of phantom braking. One on regular cruise control and one on autopilot. Autopilot was heading over the Columbia River Northbound on I-5, a very obvious high center bridge with lots of scaffolding. The other was an overpass with a clear long dip under the overpass somewhere in central CA on I-5. As new owners, both incidents kind of freaked us out but it was definitely not a panic stop but firm braking. It would be concerning if there was traffic behind when we did it.
     
  13. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    I definitely feel for Tesla when it comes to all of the aftermath of Autopilot accidents…. 2 incidents on a 824 mile drive is too much, 10 incidents on a 400 mile drive is too much…. If we assume the car evaluates whether or not to brake on a 0.1 mile increment (which is way conservative) both are above a 99.95% false positive rejection… Or if we normalize it to presumably an overpass every 1 mile, that's still above 97% rejection.

    That's gonna be a hard problem for them to solve.
     
  14. boonedocks

    boonedocks Active Member

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    Funny we get phantom braking for shadows and dark patches....just not braking for stopped firetrucks. LOL

    I have had the overpass shadow and dark patch phantom braking for many months and on all FW releases. Sometimes I think it's been resolved and then BAM, literally, hard braking out of nowhere.
     
    • Funny x 1
  15. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    To be fair most of the crashing into stopped trucks is AP1 and not AP2. IME AP2 is a ton better at recognizing those, while AP1 doesn’t ever seem to think a stopped truck is a vehicle.
     
  16. nybw51mr42

    nybw51mr42 Member

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    Same here, happened again recently on 2018.32. Also comes with the wife yelling at me to stop using it. AP1 for reference.
     
    • Funny x 2
  17. sauce

    sauce :P

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    I've got 4 days left to my trial and so far I've had this false positive occur a good dozen times. I've seen 3 scenarios trigger this:

    1) A truck passes me in the left lane and when the truck moves back to the right lane in front of me, unless there is a LONG distance spread, I get a brake jerk. That is unsettling at a minimum, and though I haven't had any cars following me closely while that happenned, if it had been the case I could have been rear-ended that way.

    2) A vehicle joins the highway from the right ahead of me but with a tight distance, albeit at the right speed, my car slams the brakes and prays no one's following.

    3) This morning, clear highway ahead of me, but being followed closely behind by a truck again, and the adaptive cruise (after 3 sudden brake episodes from situation 1 I was pretty annoyed and had stopped using EAP) pulled a brake check on the truck following behind.

    Tesla, if you're reading this, please do not hesitate to pull the logs from my car and review this.

    I'm not happy at all with this trial. I'm ending it early. As far as I'm concerned, EAP in its current state is annoying and the brake checking / sudden braking can be dangerous in some situations and could even get me in trouble with the law as in my province it is considered a detrimental maneuver endangering other road users and can be heftily fined. Trust me folks, I know this the hard way from a past lifed.

    My conclusion to this trial: I have no doubt EAP as a whole may be safer than many drivers out there. As far as I'm concerned (professional driver speaking) it is a useless and annoying driving assist / tool. Tesla has much, MUCH more development work ahead to make this EAP, nevermind FSD truly a useful and safer tool for professional driving.

    Here's what I believe Tesla needs to prioritize in development of EAP/FSD:

    * Putting an end to those false positives should already have been sorted out.
    * Better tolerance for temporary safe distance infringement (as in getting cut off from someone closing a pass early and not actually slamming the brakes).
    * Improving speed limit panel recognition (EAP limiting speed to 60kph in a 90kph zone is not cool).
    * Implementing pothole/pavement damage avoidance.
    * Apex trajectories in curves to avoid crossing vehicles to closely.
    * Allow variable centering to keep vehicle outside carved pavement (ruts) especially in rainy conditions, but also for smoother ride.
    * Smoother maneuvers in general.

    In my opinion, this should be done even before on-off ramp would be implemented, because you know what, on-off ramps and auto lanec change are going to be game-changers for many people who might then get frustrated by the apparent lack of intelligence and/or borderline dangerousness of some maneuvers such as sudden braking and lack of apex trajectories in curves allowing the car to cross incoming traffic dangerously close or at least too close for comfort.

    /rant
     
    • Informative x 1
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  18. boonedocks

    boonedocks Active Member

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    And this is why I posted a thread about "Why would Tesla release a free trial of EAP if V9 is all it is supposed to be and is supposed to be released in just a few weeks?" What an abysmal first introduction to AP. Why wouldn't Tesla just wait a few weeks and release it when the next "great new EAP features coming in V9" in August, full roll out in September" hmmm maybe because that is not going to happen?

    Tesla autopilot free over the air autopilot trials

    Someone needs to take the reigns over there and manage customer experience and expectations.
     
  19. sauce

    sauce :P

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    @boonedocks, you're right, I'm sorry I missed your thread. I will post my input in it later tonight.

    I will definitely buy the FSD when it reaches level 4-5 of refinement as I can see compelling justification for this tool at maturity, but to me in it's current state of development and with my personal (intensive) usage of my car the current iteration of EAP is worth something between the roll of an eye and a laugh. (Ok maybe overdoing it a little but you get the point) :)
     
  20. smuzumdar

    smuzumdar New Member

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    Mar 3, 2017
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    Location:
    Tysons Corner, VA
    Yup... happens to me when I am passing an overpass with shadows (similar to what others have mentioned). I just found it funny as my wife yells at me when that happens too :)
     

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