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Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Dutchmeeuw, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. qwk

    qwk P130DL

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    Just think, you now don't ever have to worry about idle charges again!
     
    • Funny x 2
  2. swegman

    swegman Active Member

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    Just got off the phone with NHTSA. An investigation has NOT been opened as of today. According to NHTSA, they are still evaluating the petition that was filed in Sept.

    Also, to date, only 4 complaints have been matched to the petition. I note that my complaint from last week has not yet been matched to the petition. I would suggest that everyone that is upset about this matter file a complaint immediately with the NHTSA. There is strength in numbers. If only 4 complaints are on record, the reviewer may determine it is a non-issue. If there are lots of complaints on file, they are more likely to determine to open an investigation.
     
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  3. Gixx1300R

    Gixx1300R Member

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    can you provide a link to the petition?
     
  4. Chaserr

    Chaserr Hyperactive Hyperdrive

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    #6084 Chaserr, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
    More than 4 people have posted their h aving filed complaints here already, some with full text of what was sent. If the NHTSA is having a difficult time sorting them all I recommend everyone that has filed a complaint do so again.

    The link is here: File a Vehicle Safety Complaint | Safercar.gov | NHTSA

    Include this at the top:
    RE: NHTSA Action Number: DP19005 - INVESTIGATION Subject : Battery Management Software Updates

    That is their internal number and their internal title. Remember this is a safety complaint not a legal one. Mention that they took action to downgrade horsepower and range along with all other aspects of performance through a total voltage cap after claiming to be releasing a fire-safety update, but officially no safety update was released ever. All we want is answers - recalls have procedures that aren't being followed.

    I suggest writing in your own words, the gist being something like what @jkennebeck said:

    Starting with a software update in May 2019, Tesla capped the max voltage the high voltage battery would charge to. They claim they did this "out of an abundance of caution" after several non-crash fires happened to these models. Tesla took action to downgrade horsepower and range along with all other aspects of performance through a total voltage cap after claiming to be releasing a fire-safety update, but officially no safety update was released. This change happened while the car was parked in my garage and stationary.

    My own complaint asked them to investigate as I would like to have a definitive answer of whether it is safe for my family to have a battery in the garage that may catch fire for any reason at any moment, and Tesla refuses to clarify why they have crippled my battery and removed $30,000. My request if for answers - recompense can come later if justified, but safety is most important and Tesla will not directly answer any questions regarding safety. Nobody will willingly update and risk losing so much value to they car on purpose, so we need to knowz:
    (1) This update is a critical safety issue and worth more than money,
    (2) The update is effective at reducing the fires that necessitated the updates and our homes/families will not burn if we resume parking in the garage,
    (3) The downgrades are temporary measure taken while more permanent repairs are planned,
    (4) people that have chosen not to upgrade, people that are blacklisted from official Tesla updates, and people that are unable to receive wireless data are notified that there is a critical safety update needed and they should schedule an appointment with Tesla to have it installed in accordance with NHTSA recall procedures.

    Since Tesla has refused to answer any of the above questions and only made vague statements implying a safety risk - to the press, not to us - we seek definitive answers from an NHTSA investigation.
    ______________________________________________________________

    Mods or @Dutchmeeuw could you add this to Post #1? There's a lot of helpful updates that could ge there to make this an easier to follow thread. We've learned a lot in the months since the reductions were first discovered, the first post is still just a simple "has anyone else lost a ton from this last update, tesla says it's normal" blurb.

    Here's a list of people that filed and shared:
    I did, presumably DJRas did, @lightningltd , @jkennebeck , @Ferrycraigs , I quit here but I do remember a few more people posting their text. It's helpful to see what others are saying to make our submissions more direct, I'll link them when I have time.
     
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  5. qwk

    qwk P130DL

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    Cutting To the chase here, Tesla put an 8 year, unlimited mile warranty on their batteries, and it looks like they lost that bet. Everything else is just excuses.
     
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  6. swegman

    swegman Active Member

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    It’s a government agency we are dealing with. Having dealings with the government for 30 years, I’m not surprised not all complaints have been matched to the petition. It can take as long as a month for them to match complaints.

    It’s a good suggestion to file a complaint again if your reference number is nit matched to the petition. Duplicate complaints will nit hurt.
     
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  7. omarsultan

    omarsultan Active Member

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    I miss these days...

     
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  8. kavyboy

    kavyboy Active Member

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    I would be willing to take a hit if the company tried to work with us customers. Maybe paying some for a replacement "update" battery, a special discount on the next purchase, free insurance coverage, whatever, in exchange for NOT forcing them to do an expensive battery replacement. However, if they're just going to unilaterally downgrade with no meaningful explanation, then I'm going to feel vindictive and not care all that much if they go out of business. Yep, it's emotional, but I doubt I'm alone in that feeling.
     
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  9. CuriousG

    CuriousG Active Member

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  10. cpa

    cpa Active Member

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    [emphasis added]

    This PR spin makes light of the issue. Modifiers are subjective. Each of us has our perceptions with modifiers like very small and small.

    My personal feelings are that a "very small" percentage of owners would be <2.5%. A "small" reduction in range would be about 4-5%. Yours could be different from mine, and neither of us is right or wrong.

    In addition, the press release states, ". . .owners of older Model S and Model X vehicles may have noticed . . ." The auxiliary, "may", is the least definite of verbs to describe the likelihood of occurrence. This to me implies that there is a subset of owners who have not noticed this reduction in range, or have yet to report it to Tesla.

    I believe that this statement could have been recast without these adjectives and communicated the same message. "A number of owners of older Model S and Model X reported some range reduction . . ."
     
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  11. sorka

    sorka Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately she wasn't with anyone. But yea, she's had a past history of driving off with the pump still attached. Enough to know that the last time the gas station attendant told her to pay $400 that he was trying to shake her down. When the pumps detach, they detach at a part that's designed to break. It takes about 10 minutes to re-attach. She's even watched them do it while she was still there. The previous times different gas stations charged her anything from $0 to $50 but the last time at the last gas station, they tried to get her for $400.

    She refused and said she'd just go through insurance and that they should call the cops and file a report. The attendant then changed the price to $50 and left it at that :)
     
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  12. CuriousG

    CuriousG Active Member

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    Let me fix that so now you have a nice Haiku:

    take away voltage
    taken away fast charging
    taken away range

    slow zero sixty
    performance anxiety
    instant regret now
     
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  13. Chaserr

    Chaserr Hyperactive Hyperdrive

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    "The battery pack in your car is obviously very important and expensive to replace. In developing the Model S, we took great care to ensure that the battery would protect itself, always retaining a few percent of energy. But since something wrong wrong, it is therefore your fault, not ours. You should grovel at having the opportunity to be ripped off by us, we have your money and that's all that matters. If you don't like it we will automatically disagree with everything you post. Buy a new car and shut up."

    it's like every Apple update ever, "A small number of devices..." standard boilerplate. If it was a small number they could afford to fix the problem and not elect to make it an international news topic.
     
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  14. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't that cost Tesla more than simply swapping a capped pack with an uncapped, refurbished pack? Since most affected cars are likely older vehicles within a couple of years of warranty expiration, by swapping the pack Tesla will almost guarantee that any recurrence happens after the warranty expiration. A refurb pack, I think, would be cheaper and buy Tesla just enough time to be off the hook for additional warranty repairs.

    Do you know if a reduction in charging speed, but no reduction in capacity, be a reason to file w/ NHTSA over this issue?

    In the interest of history, what you quoted was with regards to batteries getting bricked. It was not a blanket statement about all battery issues. That was specifically with regard to bricking and having an anti-bricking buffer on the low end.
     
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  15. omarsultan

    omarsultan Active Member

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    The blog post it came from (Creating the World’s Best Service and Warranty Program) had, IMO, a bit broader scope than just bricking. The full section:

     
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  16. faughtz

    faughtz Model S P85DL

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    I’m in the same boat with a 2014 P85DL. I initially lost about 40kW of performance.
     
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  17. bhzmark

    bhzmark Active Member

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    Those with Ludicrous, I suggest approaching this from the Ludicrous angle then. I had a problem a while back with my battery and explained to them that I wasn't getting the P85DL Ludicrous power anymore. I had the logs from Teslalog to show the power decrease under various circumstances. They worked hard to figure out the problem and fix it bring it back up to ludicrous spec.

    That's only for the P100DLs. I suggest Teslalog.com
     
  18. faughtz

    faughtz Model S P85DL

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    My problem is the inability to charge cells to 4.2v. What was your car’s issue? And the corrective action?
     
  19. swegman

    swegman Active Member

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    As far as I recall, there is no claim in the lawsuit about reduced charging speed. I’m not certain whether a reduced charging speed without a reduction in capacity would be enough for submitting a NHTSA complaint, but in my opinion, the worst that can happen is they discard your complaint. So I would say file a complaint.

    Perhaps David or Edward can chime in on this question.
     
    • Informative x 1
  20. Ferrycraigs

    Ferrycraigs Member

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    David I agree whatever the issue is, it was not known about some years ago. But you seem to be suggesting it is due to degradation. I thought there had been sufficient posts here to demonstrate whatever it might be, degradation it certainly ain’t. I also agree, that it's “irrelevant exactly what chemical changes are happening in the battery”. Loss of Range, through degradation is absolutely something anyone with a brain should have, or might reasonably be expected to, foresee. What I didn’t foresee was Tesla deliberately reducing the Useable capacity of my battery by altering the maximum charging voltage. Particularly without alerting me they were going to do it, or telling me after they had done it. That’s not degradation, that’s capping.

    You also say they had to take away Range suddenly for Safety? Has that been confirmed? I had always understood that was just us lot speculating. I am not saying it’s not true, merely that I didn’t think that was common ground.
     
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