tga
Supporting Member
While I agree, that's not how the BMS stats are coded (or at least what you can see on the CAN bus). It simply tracks kWh of AC charging, and kWh of DC charging. There is no record of charge rate, charging over/under 20kW, etc.
Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
Ferrycraigs
Member
I completely agree with this post, apart from the obvious flaw, which is, ALL Charging is DC charging. Supercharging uses a Tesla Charger to convert AC to DC so it goes straight into the battery. AC charging uses exactly the same Tesla charger to convert AC to DC so it goes straight into the battery. The only difference I can see is at low SoC the Supercharger uses more than one Tesla charger to covert the current to DC. Tesla have declined to answer this point.
I also reminded them that my CHAdeMO Adapter, which could ONLY be bought from them, did not come with any such warnings. And of course Tesla has 100% control over how much tapering happens in order not to do damage to the battery. The owner has zero influence over this process other than selecting the SoC level. But I can’t find the logic that says if Tesla make errors in the BMS coding, which results in a battery that needs capping 'for longevity', how is that the owners fault?
Tesla has stated in writing that their BMS issues are their own fault. Not that they needed to say it, Warranty laws make it so anyway, but they themselves agree. They aren't shifting blame to us, they're keeping quiet because they know this is their fault.
What irks me most is they don't want to work with us, communicate with us, settle things down, or even open a dialog to allow cooler heads to prevail. They're stoking a fire they created and trying to make it burn out of control. It's hard to understand why they want this to become a big problem for them.
Discovery is going to sink Tesla's case, and if they insist on testifying to all current and future prospective buyers that will can, will, and do remove anything they want to take from cars at any time, it might not just sink their case it could deeply impact the company itself. I had presumed they were fighting a delaying action, but with Tesla having opted to spend big money on the external counsel they've hired to try and justify their actions, it means they aren't just trying to delay things for a year before they settle and make us whole - it means they intend to steal from everyone forever.
What irks me most is they don't want to work with us, communicate with us, settle things down, or even open a dialog to allow cooler heads to prevail. They're stoking a fire they created and trying to make it burn out of control. It's hard to understand why they want this to become a big problem for them.
Jeffery Dahmer killed 17 people in the Milwaukee area. Milwaukee's population at the time was about 730,000. 0.0023% is a pretty small percentage. I wonder why he got 16 life sentences?
That's what discovery is for!
Tesla has truly jumped the shark if a Leaf can charge faster than our cars. Sad!
Discovery is going to sink Tesla's case, and if they insist on testifying to all current and future prospective buyers that will can, will, and do remove anything they want to take from cars at any time, it might not just sink their case it could deeply impact the company itself. I had presumed they were fighting a delaying action, but with Tesla having opted to spend big money on the external counsel they've hired to try and justify their actions, it means they aren't just trying to delay things for a year before they settle and make us whole - it means they intend to steal from everyone forever.
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faughtz
Model S P85DL
I suffered the theft, and I have never used Range Mode once.
Ferrycraigs
Member
Fair point. Perhaps fault is the wrong word, but I do feel like I am being punished, and that I have done nothing wrong. I am being told my car is being capped because I used my CHAdeMO too much. Ergo my fault I have been capped. Of course that ignores they did not give out any warnings, and that the wrote the BMS coding. But I have to pay or suffer the consequences.
You are being punished. We all are. They were caught with their hand in the cookie jar but instead of apologizing and returning the cookie they stole they're going to tell the judge they want every cookie and every jar everywhere, for free.
Our punishment is waiting for the Courts to laugh at them, and they're going to make it take at least a year, probably several. My most optimistic hope is that they know it will take that long for them to make it affordable enough to be able to afford the long-term aftermath of their decision.
Our punishment is waiting for the Courts to laugh at them, and they're going to make it take at least a year, probably several. My most optimistic hope is that they know it will take that long for them to make it affordable enough to be able to afford the long-term aftermath of their decision.
Not to be picky about it, but I thought when you supercharge, it's DC to DC with the Tesla on-board charger bypassed, no?
This:
@Chaserr , I've mentioned this here a couple times. There have to be explanations/motivations for their behaviour that remain unknown to us. I simply do not believe their (apparently) destructive behaviour can be driven only by stubbornness or let's say "egos".
@Chaserr , I've mentioned this here a couple times. There have to be explanations/motivations for their behaviour that remain unknown to us. I simply do not believe their (apparently) destructive behaviour can be driven only by stubbornness or let's say "egos".
omarsultan
Active Member
It isn't fully bypassed in some way at least - people have had supercharging disabled when they had an AC charger fail.
It's all nitpicking any way. Tesla counts direct DC plugging in differently and kW doesn't matter. I charge at a consistent 15-20kW on normal AC with onboard dual chargers, but depending on SOC I charge slower when supercharging now - but AC charging isn't counted on their DC throttle scoreboard even though it's faster than superchargers.
It's all nitpicking any way. Tesla counts direct DC plugging in differently and kW doesn't matter. I charge at a consistent 15-20kW on normal AC with onboard dual chargers, but depending on SOC I charge slower when supercharging now - but AC charging isn't counted on their DC throttle scoreboard even though it's faster than superchargers.
From the Model S manual:
"The peak charging rate of the Battery may decrease slightly after a large number of DC Fast Charging sessions, such as those at Superchargers. To ensure maximum driving range and Battery safety, the Battery charge rate is decreased when the Battery is too cold, when the Battery’s charge is nearly full, and when the Battery conditions change with usage and age. These changes in the condition of the Battery are driven by battery physics and may increase the total Supercharging duration by a few minutes over time."
Not sure if that was always there or they added that in an update.
That was added after Tesla was sued. As with this thread, they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar and lost. The thread that forced that text is here on TMC, along with a long discussion about them adding it to try and get out of trouble after the fact.
It doesn't apply to most of us impacted by batterygate - Tesla's 85 Batteries were discontinued by then.
It doesn't apply to most of us impacted by batterygate - Tesla's 85 Batteries were discontinued by then.
Ferrycraigs
Member
It is, but it comes to the Supercharger as AC, then is converted to DC using one of the twelve 11kW chargers (exactly the same charger that is in the car, although newer cars now have the 16kW charger, but not Superchargers) in the tall silver charger cabinet (not the tombstone, that just delivers it). So however it comes into the charge plug, it goes into the battery as DC. So actually all Charging, as far as the battery is concerned, is DC charging.
We don't need to care whose ego is trying to cause so much harm to Tesla - all we need to know is they have chosen to commit large-dollar thefts against more people than they can afford to make right, and that they are planning to tell a judge they felt OK stealing, and continuing to steal. V10 increased the number of impacted users, thery aren't going to stop stealing until a court orders it and none of us really care why they think these crimes are OK.
All we want is for them to return what was stolen. We don't even demand they replace or repair batteries - we just want them to reverse the software crippling hacks they made to our property without our consent. They haven't said there is a reason for it, and if there is one and it requires hardware repair that is OK too - but we don't need repair we just need what we own to be returned immediately.
Please provide a link to where Tesla specifically says in writing (as opposed to inferring) that BMS issues are their fault. I don’t recall a specific statement to that effect. Thank you.
It's been repeated many times in this thread, we need a wiki or summary post but the person that created this thread was so crippled by this update he had to sell his Tesla and buy a gas car - so he is no longer on the forum.
Creating the World’s Best Service and Warranty Program
Battery Warranty
In developing the Model S, we took great care to ensure that the battery would protect itself... If something goes wrong, it is therefore our fault, not yours.
All damage is covered by warranty, including improper maintenance or unintentionally leaving the pack at a low state of charge for years on end. The battery will be replaced at no cost by a factory reconditioned unit with an energy capacity equal to or better than the original pack before the failure occurred.
The intent is to provide complete peace of mind about owning your Model S even if you never read or followed the instructions in the manual.
Not that it matters. Magnusen Moss says the same thing - their battery warranty covers their defects. They have no choice in the matter, they just rephrased it nicely for marketing.
Creating the World’s Best Service and Warranty Program
Battery Warranty
In developing the Model S, we took great care to ensure that the battery would protect itself... If something goes wrong, it is therefore our fault, not yours.
All damage is covered by warranty, including improper maintenance or unintentionally leaving the pack at a low state of charge for years on end. The battery will be replaced at no cost by a factory reconditioned unit with an energy capacity equal to or better than the original pack before the failure occurred.
The intent is to provide complete peace of mind about owning your Model S even if you never read or followed the instructions in the manual.
Not that it matters. Magnusen Moss says the same thing - their battery warranty covers their defects. They have no choice in the matter, they just rephrased it nicely for marketing.
I believe this quote from Tesla, which appeared in this Elektrek article from 2017, is quite interesting:
“The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and chemical changes inside of the cells. Our fast-charge control technology is designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell capacity (range capability) in all conditions. To maintain safety and retain maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of the cell change gradually with age and usage. This change due to age and usage may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our customers experience this."
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When I purchased my car in Feb. 2015, I was given multiple booklets/user guides/manuals in print. I can not find that paragraph anywhere.
omarsultan
Active Member
There is also this...
Early Model S owners - remember the supposed Supercharger penalty? Not a problem.
Early Model S owners - remember the supposed Supercharger penalty? Not a problem.
It was not there in 2015. They added it later on.
I’m surprised you have a print manual. They don’t seem to hand those out any longer since it’s difficult to make edits after the fact.
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