Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[AmpedRealtor]

In today’s Sun Times

Tesla’s disappearing miles: Owners say automatic software fix has had unwanted side effects

Excellent article!

 

[omarsultan]

If you have faith in those words by Wk057, it means you don't have any in Tesla.

Doesn't mean anything of the sort, so stop trying to put words in my mouth. I am perfectly capable of presenting my own viewpoint.

 

[Chaserr]

It's a crime for Tesla to apply a band aid in secret. We're discussing how guilty Tesla is, not whether they're guilty. If safety is mentioned AT ALL it means Tesla is trying to hurt us on purpose.

If you don't think Tesla is actively attempting to cause harm or deaths, you don't think the reductions have anything to do with safety in any way possible. It's one or the other, no middle ground. And if it's not safety, it's simple theft.

 

[omarsultan]

I know what wk057 has said in this thread.

You indicated that you are not worried about parking your car (or parked it for a year). I asked you:


You have not produced an explicit quotation from him. The reason being, he can not have such a claim.

Think of it this way: A band-aid would stop the wound from getting worse to some degree. It will not stop you from dying due to a deadly infection that you already have contracted.

BTW, that band-aid is that software patch you are referring to. Show me how you would get rid of that infection.

By the same measure, you have not produced any evidence that it doesn't fix the problem. Without further data, we are at an impasse.

 

[Chaserr]

By the same measure, you have not produced any evidence that it doesn't fix the problem. Without further data, we are at an impasse.

There is no problem to be fixed. The "fix" is just theft for no stated reason and does nothing positive whatsoever, and since there is no problem to be fixed it can't be fixing anything.

If you think there's a problem, what do you think the problem is exactly?

If all you will accept is evidence, the only evidence Tesla has presented is an admission that they did steal from us, and an offer to return a small fraction of what was stolen.

 

[Droschke]

By the same measure, you have not produced any evidence that it doesn't fix the problem. Without further data, we are at an impasse.

LoL. I do not have to produce anything. The claim was yours. You were simply asked to present evidence if a car suffering from condition Z (or X) is safe to be parked for a year. You have no evidence for the claim I did not make You made that claim, remember?

 

[omarsultan]

LoL. I do not have to produce anything. The claim was yours. You were simply asked to present evidence if a car suffering from condition Z (or X) is safe to be parked for a year. You have no evidence for the claim I did not make You made that claim, remember?

What I said was in reference to the Tanaka airbag recall and parking my car until the airbag could be replaced.

Yes, I am trusting that my car is safe for now for the reasons I explained upthread. I am not asking you or anyone else to do the same. I might be fine or I might die in a car-related house fire tonight, in which case you can post "I told you say". Regardless, this sub-thread has gotten pointless.

 

[Chaserr]

The point is to get some answers to your questions. You want Tesla to be believable when they tell you there is no danger. You want to be able to trust them... and to do that you need them to come clean about what their motivation was behind these thefts. Because like the rest of us you think there's a possibility they are putting profit over our lives. If they said it was to save money in warranty costs I'd be relieved. I'd demand a warranty fix... but not today. I have time left on the warranty, and they have cheaper batteries coming every day. They have other things I'd trade for reduced range in performance, like an AP retrofit kit or a deal on a power upgrade.

I want to know I'm safe, and after that I want Tesla to be safe. Those are the priorities. We can't be made whole if we're dead or they're bankrupt, and Tesla's secrecy could lead to one or both.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Sorry, folks, but I'm not on board with the safety accusations being made here and being driven by primarily one or two forum members. The hyperbole is getting thick and I need to make my position clear...

I have no reason to believe that Tesla is putting me in danger. None. A handful of vehicle fires out of an installed base of several hundred thousand cars is concerning given that those vehicles were not involved in accidents, but in and of themselves are not an indicator that there is some ubiquitous issue plaguing our cars. If there were, we would be seeing a lot more cars engulfed in flames. That is simply not the case.

Tesla has always responded to potential issues out of an abundance of caution and I have no reason to doubt them. I see no reason for panic and certainly zero reason to have to park one's car 20 feet down the street away from their homes as some here are doing. That is giving in to an irrational fear that is not supported by the facts. Hanging all of one's worst fears on a single forum member's hearsay is probably not the most sound reasoning.

Objectively, Tesla's track record on safety has been impeccable. They've performed recalls on steering bolts, seat brackets, installed titanium battery shields, and proactively replaced a number of parts over the years as part of its service bulletin program. Tesla has never ignored a potential safety issue in the past. Why should I think they are doing so now? The record simply does not support such a wild assertion.

Tesla has already admitted that it is pushing out potential warranty claims when it said that the reduction in capacity was to increase the longevity of the battery. Implicit in that statement is that if they do not do this, batteries will fail sooner, and by association, within the warranty period. This kind of policy would be consistent with Elon Musk's personality and borderline shadiness. Removing value from our cars like this is not okay and THAT is why I am here, because it may eventually affect me.

I don't believe there is a valid basis for the safety concern and some are running around like the sky is falling. It's not. Please tell me, when has Tesla ever ignored a safety issue along the lines of what is being proposed in this thread? What has Tesla ever done to you in the past that makes you believe they are putting your lives at risk?

 

[DJRas]

Sorry, folks, but I'm not on board with the safety accusations being made here and being driven by primarily one or two forum members. The hyperbole is getting thick and I need to make my position clear...

I have no reason to believe that Tesla is putting me in danger. None. A handful of vehicle fires out of an installed base of several hundred thousand cars is concerning given that those vehicles were not involved in accidents, but in and of themselves are not an indicator that there is some ubiquitous issue plaguing our cars. If there were, we would be seeing a lot more cars engulfed in flames. That is simply not the case.

Tesla has always responded to potential issues out of an abundance of caution and I have no reason to doubt them. I see no reason for panic and certainly zero reason to have to park one's car 20 feet down the street away from their homes as some here are doing. That is giving in to an irrational fear that is not supported by the facts. Hanging all of one's worst fears on a single forum member's hearsay is probably not the most sound reasoning.

Objectively, Tesla's track record on safety has been impeccable. They've performed recalls on steering bolts, seat brackets, installed titanium battery shields, and proactively replaced a number of parts over the years as part of its service bulletin program. Tesla has never ignored a potential safety issue in the past. Why should I think they are doing so now? The record simply does not support such a wild assertion.

Tesla has already admitted that it is pushing out potential warranty claims when it said that the reduction in capacity was to increase the longevity of the battery. Implicit in that statement is that if they do not do this, batteries will fail sooner, and by association, within the warranty period. This kind of policy would be consistent with Elon Musk's personality and borderline shadiness. Removing value from our cars like this is not okay and THAT is why I am here, because it may eventually affect me.

I don't believe there is a valid basis for the safety concern and some are running around like the sky is falling. It's not. Please tell me, when has Tesla ever ignored a safety issue along the lines of what is being proposed in this thread? What has Tesla ever done to you in the past that makes you believe they are putting your lives at risk?

Tesla did NOT ignore the safety issue with the batteries.

The very day after the fire in Hong Kong they released a software update that addressed it:
"As we continue our investigation of the root cause, out of an
abundance of caution, we are revising charge and thermal management
settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air software
update that will begin rolling out today, to help further protect the
battery and improve battery longevity"

That update capped my battery. They took it serious enough and yes, it is a very small percentage of cars so affected.
But, there is adequate circumstantial evidence linking these events.
Additionally, Jason's (wk057) post reinforces that the updates make the cars safer.
So, not many more fires after the update (Only July 30 in Germany) does seem to say this helps.

But, without Tesla saying anything relating to the fires after May 15 we are only left to speculation.
Paraphrasing Jason
IF you haven't been battery capped and have the latest software you are probably safe. If you have been capped and have the latest software you are probably safe, But, if you haven't updated, you probably should"

 

[kavyboy]

Sorry, folks, but I'm not on board with the safety accusations being made here and being driven by primarily one or two forum members. The hyperbole is getting thick and I need to make my position clear...

I have no reason to believe that Tesla is putting me in danger. None. A handful of vehicle fires out of an installed base of several hundred thousand cars is concerning given that those vehicles were not involved in accidents, but in and of themselves are not an indicator that there is some ubiquitous issue plaguing our cars. If there were, we would be seeing a lot more cars engulfed in flames. That is simply not the case.

Tesla has always responded to potential issues out of an abundance of caution and I have no reason to doubt them. I see no reason for panic and certainly zero reason to have to park one's car 20 feet down the street away from their homes as some here are doing. That is giving in to an irrational fear that is not supported by the facts. Hanging all of one's worst fears on a single forum member's hearsay is probably not the most sound reasoning.

Objectively, Tesla's track record on safety has been impeccable. They've performed recalls on steering bolts, seat brackets, installed titanium battery shields, and proactively replaced a number of parts over the years as part of its service bulletin program. Tesla has never ignored a potential safety issue in the past. Why should I think they are doing so now? The record simply does not support such a wild assertion.

Tesla has already admitted that it is pushing out potential warranty claims when it said that the reduction in capacity was to increase the longevity of the battery. Implicit in that statement is that if they do not do this, batteries will fail sooner, and by association, within the warranty period. This kind of policy would be consistent with Elon Musk's personality and borderline shadiness. Removing value from our cars like this is not okay and THAT is why I am here, because it may eventually affect me.

I don't believe there is a valid basis for the safety concern and some are running around like the sky is falling. It's not. Please tell me, when has Tesla ever ignored a safety issue along the lines of what is being proposed in this thread? What has Tesla ever done to you in the past that makes you believe they are putting your lives at risk?

I don't disagree with you. I will offer the counterpoints:
1) This isn't the same Tesla it used to be.
2) @wk057 has implied (or maybe I just inferred) that this may be a safety issue, and has outright not said it isn't.

 

[Droschke]

Sorry, folks, but I'm not on board with the safety accusations being made here and being driven by primarily one or two forum members. The hyperbole is getting thick and I need to make my position clear...

I have no reason to believe that Tesla is putting me in danger. None. A handful of vehicle fires out of an installed base of several hundred thousand cars is concerning given that those vehicles were not involved in accidents, but in and of themselves are not an indicator that there is some ubiquitous issue plaguing our cars. If there were, we would be seeing a lot more cars engulfed in flames. That is simply not the case.

Tesla has always responded to potential issues out of an abundance of caution and I have no reason to doubt them. I see no reason for panic and certainly zero reason to have to park one's car 20 feet down the street away from their homes as some here are doing. That is giving in to an irrational fear that is not supported by the facts. Hanging all of one's worst fears on a single forum member's hearsay is probably not the most sound reasoning.

Objectively, Tesla's track record on safety has been impeccable. They've performed recalls on steering bolts, seat brackets, installed titanium battery shields, and proactively replaced a number of parts over the years as part of its service bulletin program. Tesla has never ignored a potential safety issue in the past. Why should I think they are doing so now? The record simply does not support such a wild assertion.

Tesla has already admitted that it is pushing out potential warranty claims when it said that the reduction in capacity was to increase the longevity of the battery. Implicit in that statement is that if they do not do this, batteries will fail sooner, and by association, within the warranty period. This kind of policy would be consistent with Elon Musk's personality and borderline shadiness. Removing value from our cars like this is not okay and THAT is why I am here, because it may eventually affect me.

I don't believe there is a valid basis for the safety concern and some are running around like the sky is falling. It's not. Please tell me, when has Tesla ever ignored a safety issue along the lines of what is being proposed in this thread? What has Tesla ever done to you in the past that makes you believe they are putting your lives at risk?

Sorry, but I'm confused. It was not that long ago (post#2847) that:

So you put the interests of some nebulous group of shady people you don't know above fellow owners who are experiencing a hardship?

replying to a poster who wrote "I just bought my 3 in March and I really don't want the people who delight in harming Tesla to use this as another piece of ammunition against them."

 

[Guy V]

It wasn't mine either. I lost 4 in the first year, 3 more in the next 6 years. 7 miles of degradation was perfectly fine and expected.

2013 P85, lost showed 3% first 5+ years, 8% more following the update.

Now showing 11% loss to 236 at 100% calculated vs. original 265, but since never able to exceed 97% charge, that is really 14% lost.

 

[First EV]

I don't disagree with you. I will offer the counterpoints:
1) This isn't the same Tesla it used to be.
2) @wk057 has implied (or maybe I just inferred) that this may be a safety issue, and has outright not said it isn't.

I will add the timing and cost factor. Timing, these previous recalls were when tesla was just beginning to build its brand and we were still valued important customers. Cost factor, bolts and a skid plate are cheap vs a battery.

 

[Guy V]

Agree. My expectation was by this time I would have the option to upgrade my battery (not the entire car) to a newer and higher capacity for a lot cheaper $ (not trading my current battery for a $20K refurbished one!!!). That concern was shared with Tesla. I was told by Tesla that should be no concern at all.

^^^ THIS!

 

[Guy V]

But, WHO says it is SAFE now?
Only Tesla!
They also believed the cars were safe from the factory 5 years ago.
Until a third party verifies this IS safe can we actually assume it is safe.

I believe it is SAFER.
But, I installed a smoke detector in my garage that will notify my smartphone on the nightstand.

That's wise. I am glad my car is parked well away from my house either on the street in front or under the carport far in back.

Still, I personally feel a Tesla is far safer than the gasoline bombs I used to drive.

 

[Guy V]

There is a thread ( Tesla forced an update of my P85D to 2019.16.2 ) that is recording those that have been force updated. I’m on the list. More people are being force updated over the past week or so. I was updated from version 8 to 2019.16.2 on June 14 it 15. Then was later updated to 2019.28.2.5. Still on that version.

2019.28.2.5 seems to be the sticky spot for me too. Has anyone landed there and then gotten past it?

 

[Guy V]

Sure, and Tesla has apparently made a change that mitigates that concern (based on the comments from @wk057). Granted, none of us are happy with the change or the way it was done, but it seems like the near-term risk has been addressed, which leaves us waiting a long-term resolution from Tesla.

It's impossible to know the effectiveness of their mitigation effort unless it fails.

 

[omarsultan]

Cost factor, bolts and a skid plate are cheap vs a battery.

I don't think it has be the full-bore $20K new-pack per car. Just thinking our loud...

• My car, when new has 79.5 kWh of accessible charge (265 miles * 300 kW/mi)
• As of recently, it was down to ~73.5 kWh of usable pack (245 miles * 300 kW/mi), or a loss of ~6kWh though normal, expected degradation
• After the evil update, it is down to ~67.5 kWh of usable pack (225 * 300 kW/mi) or another ~6kWh courtesy of the SW update

So, what does keeping me whole look like? Well, I am not expecting the full 12 kWh back, but getting the 6 kWh back would be cool, so maybe I get back a re-manufactured pack with enough additional cells that get me back to ~73.5 kWh again. Because of the existence of the 90 kWh pack, we know they have some space to play with and that kind of approach would be in line with the wording in the battery warranty. Anyway, I have no idea if this is doable and if it addresses the changing speed issue, but my point is there is probably middle ground between "stuck with current pack" and "brand new pack" that can be explored.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Sorry, but I'm confused. It was not that long ago (post#2847) that:


replying to a poster who wrote "I just bought my 3 in March and I really don't want the people who delight in harming Tesla to use this as another piece of ammunition against them."

That does not in any way contradict what I just said. I empathize and am concerned about the loss of battery capacity without any communication from Tesla and denying warranty remedies. I've said several times that I am not impacted by the capping, but I am concerned because I own a P85 and I may be affected by this at some point.

That is totally separate from this being labeled as a safety issue that Tesla is intentionally covering up, as some here are saying outright. I'm not on board with that accusation at all and feel that Tesla has always gone above and beyond to address any and all safety concerns with their vehicles. Fair is fair.