Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,666
6,523
Logan
What does "mitigation" mean? Does it have a specific meaning in legalease?


You shouldn't let the car sit at over 90%. If you aren't driving anywhere soon, I'd use the app to set the climate control to high and open the sunroof. The battery should be down to 90% in an hour or so (well, assuming it's cold/cloudy enough for the heat to run; I've only used this trick in the winter).

Mitigation means they're willing to admit to what they did and offer a compromise solution. It could be as insulting as "we took 30 miles but if you let this go we won't take the rest" or it could be an honest "we can't afford to fix this for everyone now, but think we can within 5 years, would a cap right now and an offer of reparations over time be acceptable? We anticipate batter batteries eventually so people fixed now will get 18650 but people who can wait years will get lighter, faster charging replacements with more range or power."

It will probably be somewhere in between these unrealistic extreme examples and it will probably not be an acceptable offer initially.
 

islandbayy

Active Member
Feb 25, 2013
2,677
1,067
Greendale, Wisconsin
For those thinking the Model 3's are getting capped because they are seeing voltages of 4.18 and 4.19, this is not the case. The cars charge and maintain charging at a maximum of 4.2v, when charging completes, the voltage settles down to about 4.19 and 4.18. Don't look at the lowest cell voltage, you must look at the highest cell voltage. If the high side after charging to 100% completes and drops to 4.16 or less, then you've got a problem. If it hits 4.17, most likely an imbalance that will correct itself after a few charge cycles or exceedingly cold temps. As the Model 3 does not have a pack heater, and the motor stall for heating the battery is good for crap, the pack may be too cold so BMS limits charging a bit.
 

DJRas

Member
May 9, 2017
646
2,988
Victorville, CA
What does "mitigation" mean? Does it have a specific meaning in legalease?
.

Mediation is an informal and confidential way for parties to resolve their disputes with the help of a neutral third party — a “mediator” — who is trained to help people discuss their differences

The confidential part may be what Tesla is most hoping for.
Information disclosed during mitigation discussions is held confidential (unless agreed upon otherwise).
 

Ferrycraigs

Member
Dec 23, 2015
610
2,362
eh BONNIE, Scotland

jkennebeck

Member
Apr 29, 2016
189
452
Richmond, VA
Sounds like he meant mediation. That makes more sense.

Mitigation in law is generally the theory that the aggrieved party must make all reasonable efforts to prevent further loss.

If your car sunroof breaks, don't park it out in the rain, put it in a garage. Something like that.

Not a lawyer.


Mitigation in law is the principle that a party who has suffered loss (from a tort or breach of contract) has to take reasonable action to minimize the amount of the loss suffered. As stated by the Canadian Federal Court of Appeal in Redpath Industries Ltd. v. Cisco (The),[1] "It is well established that a party who suffers damages as a result of a breach of contract has a duty to mitigate those damages, that is to say that the wrongdoer cannot be called upon to pay for avoidable losses which would result in an increase in the quantum of damages payable to the injured party." The onus on showing a failure to mitigate damages is on the defendant.



But glad to hear the law firm is at least considering settling this. Will have to see what is offered.

@DJRas, does Mr. Chen think this would apply to everyone (class action) or mediation just for you? Not sure how that works either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Droschke

DJRas

Member
May 9, 2017
646
2,988
Victorville, CA
Sounds like he meant mediation. That makes more sense.

Mitigation in law is generally the theory that the aggrieved party must make all reasonable efforts to prevent further loss.

If your car sunroof breaks, don't park it out in the rain, put it in a garage. Something like that.

Not a lawyer.


Mitigation in law is the principle that a party who has suffered loss (from a tort or breach of contract) has to take reasonable action to minimize the amount of the loss suffered. As stated by the Canadian Federal Court of Appeal in Redpath Industries Ltd. v. Cisco (The),[1] "It is well established that a party who suffers damages as a result of a breach of contract has a duty to mitigate those damages, that is to say that the wrongdoer cannot be called upon to pay for avoidable losses which would result in an increase in the quantum of damages payable to the injured party." The onus on showing a failure to mitigate damages is on the defendant.



But glad to hear the law firm is at least considering settling this. Will have to see what is offered.

@DJRas, does Mr. Chen think this would apply to everyone (class action) or mediation just for you? Not sure how that works either.


Sorry, I corrected the term to Mediation. (reread the filing).
This will be to address everyone.
 

FooFenix

Member
May 13, 2019
62
63
Lisbon, Portugal
Well... legally, I don't think it will automatically apply.
However, I will try my best to make sure the results apply world-wide.

Assuming we win here then there would be legal precedent to win the case elsewhere.
It would then be in Tesla's best interest to settle rather than litigate world-wide.

Based in Belgium here. And not an attorney but some experience with somewhat comparable matters.

Indeed probably not automatically binding for Tesla towards their non-US customers. But consumer protection regulations are in general as if not more strict in the EU than the US. Especially when we're talking about a non-european corporation threatening the very survival of "our" OEMs ;-)
If this is settled such that Tesla has to compensate affected US owners in any way, don't think they will get away with any less than that in the EU.

In practice I hope that if & when this scenario becomes unavoidable in the US, Tesla will open up to a proper dialogue with European owners.
 

omarsultan

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jun 22, 2013
4,340
15,990
Northern California
Not sure where they define the line. Here in Marin County just south of the fires, no change. But they couldn't "uncap" my 85kWh battery since they never admitted to capping it!!

I doubt they would remove the not-cap if there is a safety issue--the last thing we all need is a new fire sparked by a burning car.

As an aside, I had friends who needed help evacing and between the capping and throttling, I really questioned if I should offer to help. They were at the edge of my range and I'm not sure they would want to spend a couple of hours camped out at a supercharger while I charged back up. I am bummed I can no longer trust my car like this.
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,268
4,461
Central Valley
A little clarification on the warranty reserve reported on Tesla's third quarter form 10-Q filed today (all figures in millions of dollars):

The reserve at 6/30/19 was $941

Warranty claims charged off to the reserve during the third quarter was $59.

This is the cost to Tesla to repair/replace/remanufacture all defects in their vehicles during this period. For example, the computer in our Model 3 was replaced in August. That cost is part of the $59.

Amount charged off to the reserve for expired warranties on vehicles during the third quarter was $37.

This is the estimated amount remaining in the reserve for vehicles sold in the third quarter 2015 or later whose warranties have expired due to time or due to mileage. Tesla is no longer committed to repair these vehicles under the terms of the new car warranty. Accordingly, this estimated residual is charged off the liability.

Provision for warranty was $138.

This is the estimated amount Tesla is reserving to repair/replace/remanufacture defects and other issues for all new vehicles sold in the third quarter 2019.

The three changes outlined above resulted in an increase in expense (reduction in profit) of $42.

If we compare the third quarters between 2019 and 2018, we see that Tesla's provision in 2018 was $377, or nearly 2 3/4 more than in 2019. The charge-offs for warranty work was also a lot larger, $148 in 2018 vs. $59 in 2019, or 2 1/2 times as much.

I would be curious to see how the accounting department is interacting with the service and engineering departments to develop their methods to determine warranty reserves. The explanation accompanying the chart in the footnotes consists of the usual vague statements and generalities.
 
Last edited:

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,268
4,461
Central Valley
Additional scrutiny of the footnotes to the financial statements under Commitments and Contingencies reveals that this lawsuit is not disclosed. The litigation that is disclosed is primarily securities litigation from shareholders regarding the Solar City acquisition, the Elon Musk specious tweets about private funding, and related matters. The only disclosure is a general-purpose one:

We are also subject to various other legal proceedings and claims that arise from the normal course of business activities. If an unfavorable ruling or development were to occur, there exists the possibility of a material adverse impact on our business, results of operations, prospects, cash flows, financial position. . . [Couldn't figure out how to complete this passage.]

My hunch regarding mediation:

Tesla will have to provide the plaintiff's attorneys with a list of the eligible class members. This will allow a better understanding of the magnitude of the class and the potential dollar amount of the claim. Sometime after preliminary discussions are held, we members will be notified of the pending litigation and current mediation. If--a big if--DJRas agrees to the mediation settlement, we class members will be given the opportunity to continue in the class and receive whatever is agreed, or we can opt out of the class and take matters into our own hands.

We will never know what Tesla reveals in these mediation hearings. DJRas will be sworn to secrecy. If mediation is successful, we will be trusting that DJRas and his lawyers obtained the best possible settlement, and not the best settlement possible.

If, on the other hand, Tesla's offers are rejected, then it is off to court we go.
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top