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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

hpartsch

Member
Aug 6, 2014
592
413
wa
I have SLIGHTLY improved charging speed and am now able to start at over 100kW when below 10%SOC.
But, it still takes over and hour to get to 85% and over another hour from 85% to 95%.
Charging speed is NOT related to the same issues from the 2019.16 range issues.
Charging speed is a joke compared to what it was. Hoping this maybe can get resolved within the next 6 months?
 
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hpartsch

Member
Aug 6, 2014
592
413
wa
And still no statement from Tesla......


Disagree with the supercharging. Before 2019. I could go from 10% to 100 in an hour or sometimes a little over it. Never did it take over 2.5 hrs like it does now.

Edit: i understand that it not related. But I did notice the change at the same time.
Concur, this quick charging is what blew me away with the car. Now it seems like some are trying to erase my memory of it.
 

fbitz777

Member
Apr 6, 2016
421
549
Wexford, PA
Timing is a coincidence, as the supercharging stuff doesn't appear to be changed at all in the first update that had detection of X/Z.

I think you are right...the reduction in charge speed happened many months after the battery cap. As a matter of fact I had a few months where my 75D reached 110kw charging after the cap. Now I am maxed out at 80kw
From this thread do we know the first time the word chargegate is even mentioned?

Still the charge estimator (in app or car) is obviously bogus...Says 70 minutes for a full charge but ends up taking 120. Are you saying that yours is accurate?
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,424
4,317
Future
... they use some clever software engineering to infer the correct voltages and work around the faulty components.

Thanks for using the word “clever” in your post to describe a “workaround” (allegedly) implemented as a so-called “fix” for defective components of a product still under warranty. I wonder if the scenario below would be acceptable for the buyers of cell phones:

The cell phone manufacturer discovers the bad solder joints for some components on the circuit boards are experiencing faulty reading of actual data and are causing the phone battery meter to display misleading percentages, causing the phone owners to believe they have access to non-existent charge capacity. As a result, the phones run out of battery charge unexpectedly and shut down earlier. To avoid hardware replacement under warranty, the phone maker devises a “clever” software “workaround” to make corrections on the erroneous reading of these faulty hardware components and calls it a “fix”, leaving the owners to live with their bad hardware and strong potential of very expensive out of warranty repairs.

I wonder how many owners would find that acceptable! And, by the way, that particular cell phone model was purchased around $100K.
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,424
4,317
Future
I think you are right...the reduction in charge speed happened many months after the battery cap. As a matter of fact I had a few months where my 75D reached 110kw charging after the cap. Now I am maxed out at 80kw
From this thread do we know the first time the word chargegate is even mentioned?

Still the charge estimator (in app or car) is obviously bogus...Says 70 minutes for a full charge but ends up taking 120. Are you saying that yours is accurate?

You are not incorrect. As I recall the chargegate posts appeared after May-June of 2019.
 

cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,024
3,747
Central Valley
You are not incorrect. As I recall the chargegate posts appeared after May-June of 2019.

I returned home from a road trip around May 20, 2019, and Supercharging rates were unchanged. Most sessions from 15% to 65% took about 35 minutes.

I did a little jaunt about California in mid-August 2019. Supercharging rates had plummeted and the regen had become more restrictive through about 75% SOC.
 

omarsultan

Active Member
Jun 22, 2013
2,310
4,667
Northern California
Clever enough to make these batteries get past the warranty period. So a bandage on a bigger issue. Mark our words since I am not the only one making such statement.

Two different things. If Tesla can use SW to provide the same function (reading module voltage) with the necessary level of precision and reliability to meet system needs, then I don't see it as an bandaid. Tesla has changed the extending door handle design several times over the years and if your break they replace it with a newer design--I don't see anyone arguing about the internals of the handle design as long as it reliably does what it is supposed to do.

The broader issue of how Tesla is handling the aging of the original 85 kWh packs is disheartening and it has colored my feelings on the company as a whole.
 
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VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,023
2,414
Maryland
I have EVERY trip's data from June 2016 until today.
My sample just showed I did ACTUALLY lose range when looking at selected single trips where I started at high SOC and ended at a low SOC.
I have gigabytes of data from June 2019 onward.
I NEVER was rolling the dice. I did multiple below 10 mile range left before, during and after May 2019.
I disagree with his analysis of the mechanism of the updates (per my legal team's discovery - which I cannot share).
The measurements you have described appear to fit the mitigation in wk057's writeup to a tee. You guys seem to be talking past each other. Assuming that wk057 is not lying about his reverse engineering of the BMS code related to condition Z, it is unlikely your reduction, then increase, in range is anything other than condition Z mitigation.
 

VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,023
2,414
Maryland
Thanks for using the word “clever” in your post to describe a “workaround” (allegedly) implemented as a so-called “fix” for defective components of a product still under warranty. I wonder if the scenario below would be acceptable for the buyers of cell phones:

The cell phone manufacturer discovers the bad solder joints for some components on the circuit boards are experiencing faulty reading of actual data and are causing the phone battery meter to display misleading percentages, causing the phone owners to believe they have access to non-existent charge capacity. As a result, the phones run out of battery charge unexpectedly and shut down earlier. To avoid hardware replacement under warranty, the phone maker devises a “clever” software “workaround” to make corrections on the erroneous reading of these faulty hardware components and calls it a “fix”, leaving the owners to live with their bad hardware and strong potential of very expensive out of warranty repairs.

I wonder how many owners would find that acceptable! And, by the way, that particular cell phone model was purchased around $100K.
The real problem here is that you guys had reduced usable range for almost two years before the functional fix was implemented. That is a long time in the life of a vehicle. There is nothing wrong with using software to fix a hardware fault as long as functionality doesn't change IMO. There still needs to be some sort of compensation for the hassle.
 

faughtz

Model S P85DL
Jan 4, 2015
315
706
Los Angeles
The real problem here is that you guys had reduced usable range for almost two years before the functional fix was implemented. That is a long time in the life of a vehicle. There is nothing wrong with using software to fix a hardware fault as long as functionality doesn't change IMO. There still needs to be some sort of compensation for the hassle.

and don’t forget the loss of performance/acceleration for over a year for which some of us paid a premium.
 

omarsultan

Active Member
Jun 22, 2013
2,310
4,667
Northern California
Not as far as I'm aware. The revised version (BMB v2) is not compatible with the v1.5 modules.

So a bit more brain-picking @wk057 if you don't mind--I find the approach for the fix fascinating. So, going forward, running curretnFW, is the following correct (as far as you know):
  1. BMS measures battery using direction measurement via HW
  2. BMS notices noisy data
  3. BMS flips over to using SW inference
  4. Change is mostly transparent to owner except for a dip in range for some period of time
Assuming the above is correct, is is a) reasonable to assume many (most?) packs will eventually do this as the MOSFETs die, and b) now that the BMS is aware of the whole situation, is the calibration period shorter than is is/was for the folks that originally saw the situation for the first time over the last two years?
 
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Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,424
4,317
Future
The real problem here is that you guys had reduced usable range for almost two years before the functional fix was implemented. That is a long time in the life of a vehicle. There is nothing wrong with using software to fix a hardware fault as long as functionality doesn't change IMO. There still needs to be some sort of compensation for the hassle.

If only a number of these BMB's are indeed bad, more of them would get out of shape over time and beyond the warranty window. I certainly don't want a hardware in that condition which should have been replaced during the warranty window. The $100k cell phone analogy.

The other point to consider is that lots of owners are still fully capped (like me) and the claim by some that we will get uncapped at an unknown date is no comfort. The "check is in the mail" analogy.

I agree with the 2 year hardship and the compensation part of your post.
 

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