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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

olsch01

Member
Jan 17, 2018
16
20
Charlotte, NC
So, not to potentially open another can of worms around this topic but I've been watching this thread for quite some time, and while I didn't notice the range limitation that others did, I did get affected by the severe reduction in Supercharger speed that is all related to this. However, I took the first road trip with my '13 P85 this weekend in well over a year and a half, and had a very odd experience.

I've used ABRP pretty heavily for the 4 years I've owned my MS, and it's generally spot on <>2% when it comes to it's SOC predictions on a route, and during my trip my wh/mi averaged 290-310 the entire way, which was to be expected. It predicted I'd hit the planned supercharger with ~15%, I made it there with 2%! I've done this trip before, so was really caught off guard about 45 minutes prior to the SC stop seeing my SOC trending much lower than I remembered.

Fast forward, I get where we were planning to go - much slower thanks to the nerfed SC speeds, but it prompted me to do something I hadn't checked in awhile - the battery report on TeslaFi. Sure enough, it fell off a cliff recently and either by coincidence (or not) it seems to revolve around my car going from 2020.48.37.2 to 2020.48.37.6. I also pulled out my MX+ and loaded up ScanMyTesla for the first time in a long time, and sure enough at 100% charge (Which I almost never do, but needed to for the first leg of our roundtrip home to have some extra buffer), the battery/cell voltages are topping out at 4.08-4.09v. Cell Dif was very small, so things are relatively balanced - however this seems to align with what others ran into with capping.

So - I guess where I'm confused is they were said to have reversed this limitation in the fleet - yet I'm just hitting it now? So it begs the question, is anyone else also seeing this? Of course, as luck would have it the 8 year warrantee on my powertrain expired near the end of July. The "Coincidence" is too questionable to me to ignore.
 

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Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,550
4,723
Future
So - I guess where I'm confused is they were said to have reversed this limitation in the fleet - yet I'm just hitting it now? So it begs the question, is anyone else also seeing this?

My car is still capped since May of 2019, with no restoration whatsoever. But unlike me, you are out of warranty and it's painful that it's happening to you at this time.
 

Dave EV

Active Member
Jun 23, 2009
1,880
1,526
San Diego
So, not to potentially open another can of worms around this topic but I've been watching this thread for quite some time, and while I didn't notice the range limitation that others did, I did get affected by the severe reduction in Supercharger speed that is all related to this. However, I took the first road trip with my '13 P85 this weekend in well over a year and a half, and had a very odd experience.

I've used ABRP pretty heavily for the 4 years I've owned my MS, and it's generally spot on <>2% when it comes to it's SOC predictions on a route, and during my trip my wh/mi averaged 290-310 the entire way, which was to be expected. It predicted I'd hit the planned supercharger with ~15%, I made it there with 2%! I've done this trip before, so was really caught off guard about 45 minutes prior to the SC stop seeing my SOC trending much lower than I remembered.

Fast forward, I get where we were planning to go - much slower thanks to the nerfed SC speeds, but it prompted me to do something I hadn't checked in awhile - the battery report on TeslaFi. Sure enough, it fell off a cliff recently and either by coincidence (or not) it seems to revolve around my car going from 2020.48.37.2 to 2020.48.37.6. I also pulled out my MX+ and loaded up ScanMyTesla for the first time in a long time, and sure enough at 100% charge (Which I almost never do, but needed to for the first leg of our roundtrip home to have some extra buffer), the battery/cell voltages are topping out at 4.08-4.09v. Cell Dif was very small, so things are relatively balanced - however this seems to align with what others ran into with capping.

So - I guess where I'm confused is they were said to have reversed this limitation in the fleet - yet I'm just hitting it now? So it begs the question, is anyone else also seeing this? Of course, as luck would have it the 8 year warrantee on my powertrain expired near the end of July. The "Coincidence" is too questionable to me to ignore.
Did you read wk057's very thorough post on what's happening?


The short of it is that it takes a minimum of 30 days plus 20-30 full cycles of the pack (probably 4000-7000 miles equivalent or so) to get your range back.

It looks like you have more cycles to go... Until then, since you have ScanMyTesla, don't worry about charging more for the range if you need it. 4.08-4.09 V is about 90% normally, so don't be afraid to charge to 100% until your range comes back.
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
it takes a minimum of 30 days plus 20-30 full cycles of the pack (probably 4000-7000 miles equivalent or so) to get your range back.

Taking a cynical view, even when cars were / are under warranty, any process that takes what for some might be a year or more driving to complete is little more than major kicking can down the street (and over the wty fence too with any luck for Tesla). The very process of starting the diagnosis process should require Tesla to honor the results even if out of warranty.

For an out of wty car, does it make any sense at all to run such a lengthy process? If it is in any way safety related, (directly or indirectly - and I would include any battery failure as potential safety issue depending on when it fails) then all the owner needs to know is how to get the battery fixed asap. (Also thinking of future battery issues especially in Europe - with 'right to repair' legislation becoming more center stage - shipping batteries around the world because of a bit of corrosion or single component failure will become (should already be) completely unacceptable and unnecessary.) Of course, if there are safety related issues, Tesla could still be on the hook, but that's going to be pretty much impossible to prove imo. and require very deep pockets.)

If it is some nebulous 'would you like your range reduced or battery life potentially shorter but you're going to have nerfed charging speeds either way' then just give the owner the choice of which way to go. Tell them how their battery health is and let them charge / drive on a case by case basis knowing how their battery is doing. There should be a clear explanation / justification of why charging speed needs to be reduced and for why Tesla has no obligation to address that on case-by-case basis.

Bottom line, all the games of software fudges only make sense if there is potential safety issue or to limp batteries past warranty expiration. Tesla would care about both those scenarios, especially within warranty period. If neither were the case, what possible justification is there to reduce car performance, even temporarily?

Outside warranty Tesla can wash their hands of non-safety battery failure liability, so only the owner still has safety in mind even if Tesla doesn't (officially). The owner clearly has most at stake regarding the safety of their car. If there is no safety issue according to Tesla, then no need at all to cap battery voltage / charge rates - especially out of wty - since at that point Tesla no longer has any further responsibility for battery life. It should be down to the user.

And how is the user supposed to make any (Tesla recognized) judgement about how their battery is doing without a Tesla-provided battery health tool?

@olsch01 's case, imo, gives the lie to 'all about extending battery life'. If Tesla force / require the 'test tool' to run outside wty then:

They should honor the results, even if out of wty. IE if you don't get your range back, we will fix that. If they have no intention of so doing, why run the the test (unless more important issue could be present)?

If there is no issue beyond preserving battery life, then just report battery status to owner and leave limits uncapped.

Make it a routine service requirement to run diagnostics to give conclusive evidence of battery status before warranty expires. Especially as otherwise the owner could have a pre-existing, known corrosion (or other problem) sitting undiagnosed in their battery and with no realistic / Tesla recognized way of knowing about it!
 
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olsch01

Member
Jan 17, 2018
16
20
Charlotte, NC
Did you read wk057's very thorough post on what's happening?


The short of it is that it takes a minimum of 30 days plus 20-30 full cycles of the pack (probably 4000-7000 miles equivalent or so) to get your range back.

It looks like you have more cycles to go... Until then, since you have ScanMyTesla, don't worry about charging more for the range if you need it. 4.08-4.09 V is about 90% normally, so don't be afraid to charge to 100% until your range comes back.
I actually did read through that earlier this year - really good info. I guess I didn't follow that this condition detection could happen at any time in the future, and at that point there's still this "burn in" period that is required. I'm all for ensuring the safety of the pack, and can also really appreciate the work the engineers did to devise a suitable workaround.

What really flubs me though, is that they should TELL US whenever this situation is entered. For many of us who switched to battery percentage a long time ago, the only indication that I had reduced range was me almost running out of charge while on a trip - that's not cool! It would also be really nice to be aware of when this diagnostic period will end as a way to track progress. And of course, this happened prior to the 8 year warranty ending but I wasn't aware of it simply because I haven't driven long enough distance to require charging stops during the drive.

Net Net - Pretty convenient for Tesla if you ask me. I'm hoping enough cycling returns it to somewhere near where it was, but in the meantime I opened a service ticket purely so it's documented when I noticed this - I'll be curious to see what they come back with anyway.
 

Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
Pretty convenient for Tesla if you ask me. I'm hoping enough cycling returns it to somewhere near where it was,

They should honor the results, even if out of wty. IE if you don't get your range back, we will fix that.

Of course nothing guaranteed and common sense rarely seems to come into the picture with Tesla, but IF their test were to determine that you have (effectively) what they have catagorized as similar to a manufacturing defect, then that might be the basis for trying to get them to fix it as such, regardless of when their tool finally got stuck in and delivered it's results! It's not as though any of that was under your control.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
Every word in the Tesla warranty, and every word in the applicable statutory warranty provisions, all have their own definitions in dictionaries. And the interpretation or disambiguation of those words when needed is also informed by case law.

The rest of your posts just makes legal claims that are not supported by the warranty or by the law.

Much of the suffering and upset in this thread is caused by legal ignorance and ignorance of the fact that wear and tear on physical items might not have been detected by earlier software versions, but when it is detected by later software versions it is still a physical characterestic caused by wear and tear or by a manufacturing defect. The detection by the software doesn’t change the underlying fact of Condition X or Condition Z or any other physical characteristic the developed over time and use of the product.

It is truly amazing that all the upset and anger in this thread sails along completely oblivious to the details of the underlying Conditions X and Z and what those are, how they are caused, how they are (now) detected and distinguished, and how they are remedied.


The only defined term in the battery warranty was 'unlimited miles'. I still don't know what the warranty from that period actually guaranteed and for some even the 'unlimited mileage' miles didn't mean much in practice because of some other convenient (for Tesla) cap like use of supercharging.

I guess you can have specific terms without the terms being specific.

If the purchaser of the car recognizes a specific list of performance claims and representations (including how the car performs at the time of delivery) then Tesla have a clear obligation to maintain that performance other than relating to normal wear and tear. Any sudden change caused by software update is not wear and tear. Sudden changes in charging performance resulting from software update is not wear and tear.
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,117
2,189
Uk
Every word in the Tesla warranty
From my point of view, it's the lack of words. The early warranty doesn't actually say what the battery should do even though it says how long it should do it for.
just makes legal claims
No legal claims from me. Just observations.

If this was just a wear and tear issue, it would not be reversible.

The warranty does not specify limits.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
From my point of view, it's the lack of words. The early warranty doesn't actually say what the battery should do even though it says how long it should do it for.

No legal claims from me. Just observations.

If this was just a wear and tear issue, it would not be reversible.

The warranty does not specify limits.
The warranty says what it says. That warranty has provided plenty of free repairs for many owners.
Wishing that the warranty said something else, or had more, or different, words, or was written for a different level of reading comprehension, does not itself give rise to any legal claim, or any nonlaughable claim of any kind.

“Tesla has a clear obligation to maintain that performance” is what you wrote. For those words to make any sense they are a legal claim. That legal claim has no basis.

But thanks for demonstrating my point that the still-outraged on this thread are oblivious to the details of Conditions X and Z.
 

lightningltd

Member
Apr 16, 2018
319
1,367
Trinidad, Ca.
So, not to potentially open another can of worms around this topic but I've been watching this thread for quite some time, and while I didn't notice the range limitation that others did, I did get affected by the severe reduction in Supercharger speed that is all related to this. However, I took the first road trip with my '13 P85 this weekend in well over a year and a half, and had a very odd experience.

I've used ABRP pretty heavily for the 4 years I've owned my MS, and it's generally spot on <>2% when it comes to it's SOC predictions on a route, and during my trip my wh/mi averaged 290-310 the entire way, which was to be expected. It predicted I'd hit the planned supercharger with ~15%, I made it there with 2%! I've done this trip before, so was really caught off guard about 45 minutes prior to the SC stop seeing my SOC trending much lower than I remembered.

Fast forward, I get where we were planning to go - much slower thanks to the nerfed SC speeds, but it prompted me to do something I hadn't checked in awhile - the battery report on TeslaFi. Sure enough, it fell off a cliff recently and either by coincidence (or not) it seems to revolve around my car going from 2020.48.37.2 to 2020.48.37.6. I also pulled out my MX+ and loaded up ScanMyTesla for the first time in a long time, and sure enough at 100% charge (Which I almost never do, but needed to for the first leg of our roundtrip home to have some extra buffer), the battery/cell voltages are topping out at 4.08-4.09v. Cell Dif was very small, so things are relatively balanced - however this seems to align with what others ran into with capping.

So - I guess where I'm confused is they were said to have reversed this limitation in the fleet - yet I'm just hitting it now? So it begs the question, is anyone else also seeing this? Of course, as luck would have it the 8 year warrantee on my powertrain expired near the end of July. The "Coincidence" is too questionable to me to ignore.
NOW that the warrantees are expired, they are back to calling it 'sudden degredation'. Welcome to MY world. I got NOTHING back. I got NO battery replacement.
 

bhzmark

Active Member
Jul 21, 2013
3,635
6,150
If it makes you feel any better the warranty never covered your degradation anyway.

Read your warranty and adjust your expectations accordingly.

NOW that the warrantees are expired, they are back to calling it 'sudden degredation'. Welcome to MY world. I got NOTHING back. I got NO battery replacement.
 
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