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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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I posted the actual text of the warranty above. The relevant provision is:

Note that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or remanufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla.​


In other words, it isn't that everything in the warranty is at the sole discretion of Tesla, but the method of battery capacity and related range and degradation calculations are at Tesla's discretion. That is a simple plain term of the warranty there for anyone who bothers to read it. NCDS read it.

It would be better if the S/X warranty had a more specific degradation standard like the model 3, but it doesn't.
The Warranty is very specific about range estimates, in that, it’s a variable thing, you should expect great variations. Indeed you should also expect degradation, which indeed we should. So I think any discussion with them about loss of Range or degradation is always going to be difficult. I would suggest any discussion should be about loss of Capacity. After all you bought a car with a specific battery capacity. Yes you will lose a bit through degradation, but a whole chunk overnight will always be hard for Tesla to explain away. Software limiting of the battery is not degradation in my book. It is an artificial restriction. As far as my car is concerned, I bought a 70 kWh battery, it dropped to 68.5kWh pretty quickly (as is normal) and stayed at that figure for 3 years. Then it suddenly dropped, overnight, to 58.5 kWh after downloading 2019.16.1.1 in May 19. So obviously my range is going to reduce (has reduced) as I now have a smaller battery. But Tesla have arbitrarily, and without my consent, or knowledge, fundamentally changed the battery capacity to that of a lesser model. And as far as I can tell, because they continue not to explain why, for no legitimate reason.

The Warranty does say that they remain the arbiters of how to calculate capacity, but there are a number of credible methods that we as owners can employ to demonstrate a significant and sudden reduction in capacity.
 
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I have been following and posting in this forum since inception. I appreciate all of the sharing of data and potential theories on issues. There are a lot of very smart folks on this thread.

The fact of the matter is Tesla sold us a car that they stole mileage from and charging capacity. I don’t care how you look at it.

The real question is how long are you and I supposed to wait for a resolution?

I started the process of filing a claim with my state attorney general I think that alone will get some traction. Talk is cheap we need action on this to get a resolution.
 
I posted the actual text of the warranty above. The relevant provision is:

Note that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or remanufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla.​


In other words, it isn't that everything in the warranty is at the sole discretion of Tesla, but the method of battery capacity and related range and degradation calculations are at Tesla's discretion. That is a simple plain term of the warranty there for anyone who bothers to read it. NCDS read it.

It would be better if the S/X warranty had a more specific degradation standard like the model 3, but it doesn't.
As I said before, Tesla is not going to be forced to remediate the range losses we are experiencing by the terms of their warranty for S and X. They specifically exclude degradation up to a point that can be considered battery failure.

They are only going to be held accountable in the marketplace.

That is critically important to them however, so I expect they will respond. I would like it to be soon, informative and constructive.
 
WTF? Why wouldn't they just say that about everything? That makes no sense at all. Didn't someone else on this thread get their case accepted with NCDS?


I have a arbitration hearing date of 7 Aug. I also have an initial response from tesla managing counsel, product liability at tesla, maintaining all is well and that range calculation is complex and that I have a “potential misunderstanding “.

Does anyone have a copy of the battery warranty that was in place in November 2014?

Tesla counsel’s exhibit of the warranty provided in their response includes the Model 3.
 
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I have a arbitration hearing date of 7 Aug. I also have an initial response from tesla managing counsel, product liability at tesla, maintaining all is well and that range calculation is complex and that I have a “potential misunderstanding “.

Does anyone have a copy of the battery warranty that was in place in November 2014?

Tesla counsel’s exhibit of the warranty provided in their response includes the Model 3.

You should probably make a trip that you used to easily make and prove that the range is gone by running out of energy requiring a tow.
 
The Warranty is very specific about range estimates, in that, it’s a variable thing, you should expect great variations. Indeed you should also expect degradation, which indeed we should. So I think any discussion with them about loss of Range or degradation is always going to be difficult. I would suggest any discussion should be about loss of Capacity. After all you bought a car with a specific battery capacity. Yes you will lose a bit through degradation, but a whole chunk overnight will always be hard for Tesla to explain away. Software limiting of the battery is not degradation in my book. It is an artificial restriction. As far as my car is concerned, I bought a 70 kWh battery, it dropped to 68.5kWh pretty quickly (as is normal) and stayed at that figure for 3 years. Then it suddenly dropped, overnight, to 58.5 kWh after downloading 2019.16.1.1 in May 19. So obviously my range is going to reduce (has reduced) as I now have a smaller battery. But Tesla have arbitrarily, and without my consent, or knowledge, fundamentally changed the battery capacity to that of a lesser model. And as far as I can tell, because they continue not to explain why, for no legitimate reason.

The Warranty does say that they remain the arbiters of how to calculate capacity, but there are a number of credible methods that we as owners can employ to demonstrate a significant and sudden reduction in capacity.

This issue has nothing to do with the warranty and any complaint on that basis will lose.

The issue is simply that Tesla prevents the affected cars from charging to full existing capacity. It has nothing to do with warranty or estimating range.
 
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Using scan my tesla on my 100D

The use-able capacity dropeed from 91kWh to 86kWh

also my supercharging speed is degraded after the update

can we start a class action?

What's your cell voltage at 100% or 90% as displayed on your IC? i.e. I ask that so we can see that this is software limited capacity rather than actual degradation.
 
I think the argument is about cell voltage limitations; that addresses range, capacity, and performance- intrinsically.

They will still try and say it has to do with estimation or that you never had the range in the first place. Showing graphs and charts to a non expert arbiter will not go anywhere near as far as you showing them pictures of you getting towed for a trip you used to easily be able to make but can't now. Having some very specific pertinent non complicated data to demonstrate why you ran out of energy at point x with y amount of consumption vs before when you could easily make it be more convincing. Even then, I'd expect the other side to argue that temperature, wind, etc could have resulted in you not being able to make the trip that time. That's why it needs to be not even close and why you'll still have to back that up with energy consumed per mile to show the equivalency regardless of the environmental conditions.
 
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This issue has nothing to do with the warranty and any suing on that basis will lose.

The issue is simply that Tesla prevents the affected cars from charging to full existing capacity. It has nothing to do with warranty or estimating range.
I agree, 100%. Which is why I think making the case about loss of Range or degradation is very likely to fail. So many factors affect Range it will be very easy to defend, and put forward a counter argument of misunderstanding.

The issue is altering the capacity of the battery by software. The loss of Range etc is just a consequence of this reduced capacity. Whilst clever lawyers can debate the vagaries of range calculation, battery capacity is pretty tight. It can fluctuate due to factors such as temperature, but the fluctuations are small, typically in the region of 1% or 2% or less. And even if they insist on using their method of calculating capacity, it will be very easy as an owner to demonstrate a significant drop in capacity.
 
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I posted the actual text of the warranty above. The relevant provision is:

Note that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or remanufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla.
I would like to think that a court of law would find this language to be overly broad that unfairly advantages Tesla. Unfortunately a court case would be needed to make this determination.
I agree, 100%. Which is why I think making the case about loss of Range or degradation is very likely to fail. So many factors affect Range it will be very easy to defend, and put forward a counter argument of misunderstanding.
I think this is an issue of Tesla removing, after purchase, something that was paid for. Tesla basically reached into your car and stole range from your battery. It's theft.
 
Infinite Mile Warranty

Infinite Mile Warranty

Elon Musk, CEO August 15, 2014
The Tesla Model S drive unit warranty has been increased to match that of the battery pack. That means the 85 kWh Model S, our most popular model by far, now has an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit. There is also no limit on the number of owners during the warranty period.

Moreover, the warranty extension will apply retroactively to all Model S vehicles ever produced. In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.

To investors in Tesla, I must acknowledge that this will have a moderately negative effect on Tesla earnings in the short term, as our warranty reserves will necessarily have to increase above current levels. This is amplified by the fact that we are doing so retroactively, not just for new customers. However, by doing the right thing for Tesla vehicle owners at this early stage of our company, I am confident that it will work out well in the long term.

– Elon
 
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