Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[AmpedRealtor]

Has anyone with an affected battery tried to obtain a trade-in valuation from Tesla? Wondering whether affected vehicles are going to receive lower trade-in prices.

 

[DW254]

Here's the most recent response from "Tesla Support" regarding my 2014 S85 30+ mile range loss, extended supercharge times, and increased phantom loss as a result of their "firmware" update:

Thank You for contacting Tesla!
We are very sorry to hear that you are experiencing issues with your Tesla's battery system.
We are seeing some issues where batteries are being underestimated by our range calculation system. This does not affect the energy retention capabilities of your HV Battery but, only the displayed range. We have found that in cases where the battery is consistently charged to a lower state of charge, between 60-80% capacities, estimation becomes less accurate and tends to underestimate the true capacity of the battery. The result is an incorrect reduction in the displayed range estimate. This does not affect the true range of the vehicle, as the end-of-drive conditions are based on real-time battery measurements of reducing battery power, rather than software estimates. In any case, we recognize the inconvenience and negative user experience associated with this incorrect and reduced range estimate, and we are developing more accurate estimation algorithms which will be pushed as over-the-air updates.

You can also perform a battery discharge to a low level of 20% - 25% followed by a full charge to 100%. This method may be able to correct your Tesla's range estimation algorithm and you will be able to see a more accurate range estimate on your display.

Lastly, if you are continuing to experience issues with your battery range, please schedule a service center appointment and our service team will be able to inspect and test your Tesla's high voltage battery system. You can schedule a service appointment directly from your Tesla mobile app or you can find the contact information for all of our service centers at the following page: Find Us | Tesla
Please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns and thank you for your support to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy.

Best regards,

S. P. | Tesla Support

While in previous responses Tesla Support had acknowledged that "a small percentage" of Tesla owners experienced a loss of range and they were working on a fix, now they are stating that battery range is being "underestimated by their range calculation system". What a crock! Telling me that it "only affects the displayed range" is ludicrous. The fact that I now have to charge to visit family members when I didn't before, take twice as long at a supercharger, have had my S85 turned into an S60 overnight, with the only software updates received being frivolous arcade games is a clear indication that Tesla has lost touch with priorities and customers. The question lingering is . . . how many customers does Tesla have to lose before they address this issue? I'm saddling in with the class action suit.

 

[sixela]

That is the standard boilerplate for all range estimate questions -- probably a newer employee just going down the list of faxables (and possibly ignoring what you wrote, sadly; we've all been there, and sadly not only with Tesla).

It usually takes quite some persistence to have them go beyond_ that -- but they did offer a service centre appointment (where at least you have the opportunity to be more specific).

 

[DW254]

That is the standard boilerplate for all range estimate questions -- probably a newer employee just going down the list of faxables (and possibly ignoring what you wrote, sadly; we've all been there, and sadly not only with Tesla).

It usually takes quite some persistence to have them go beyond_ that -- but they did offer a service centre appointment (where at least you have the opportunity to be more specific).

I've already been to the service center on this two months ago and had their "battery check". They concluded the battery was fine. I've had several discussions with the manager at our service center on this issue. He reports several customers have been affected with this problem, but they have received no information from management on resolving the issue other than they are "working on a software fix". I've shared with him several of the comments from this string, and he's learned more from this string that he has from Tesla.

 

[Droschke]

What in the world is this supposed to mean? Is there any other tricky explanation they have not pulled on us? Enough.

We have found that in cases where the battery is consistently charged to a lower state of charge, between 60-80% capacities, estimation becomes less accurate and tends to underestimate the true capacity of the battery. The result is an incorrect reduction in the displayed range estimate.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Tesla is also denying every single warranty request over defective MCUs with yellowing screens saying that it is "normal wear and tear". Those owners are resorting to arbitration and winning.

Yellow screen? Force Tesla to Replace it!

I had a recent repair declined under warranty even though Tesla previously repaired the same part under warranty three times. I was told the squeak from my condenser fan is "cosmetic" and not warranted. Again, they replaced it three times previously under warranty. Do you see a theme? None of this would be happening without the consent and approval of executive management at the highest levels.

Welcome to the new Tesla.

 

[MP3Mike]

What in the world is this supposed to mean? Is there any other tricky explanation they have not pulled on us? Enough.

That is an actual problem that exists, though I have only seen it reported to have occurred on Model 3s.

 

[sixela]

As I said, that's the standard boilerplate for people who've been charging _any_ car to 80% for long and not discharged very far and thrown off the estimator (even Model 3 owners get this). It's unrelated to these specific woes (which, if you're being specific about your problems should be easy to see by whoever triages the calls/messages if they are half-competent). Hence the advice to discharge to 20% and then charge once to 100%, but I bet that the original request did mention that charging to X% only yielded N miles.

There's no need to to attribute to malice what can be explained by mere incompetence.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

What in the world is this supposed to mean? Is there any other tricky explanation they have not pulled on us? Enough.

We have a saying in Scotland that describes this, exactly.

Alas, I live in fear of the Moderators.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Question. It has often been mentioned on here, including by myself, that heavy Supercharging is not the trigger, citing examples of people that have Supercharged to excess, and topped up to 100% frequently (such as taxi drivers) who have not been affected. Are we 100% confident that there are such examples from owners of pre facelift, 350V (85, 70, 60) battery cars?

 

[Droschke]

We have a saying in Scotland that describes this, exactly.

Alas, I live in fear of the Moderators.

Just don't mention they say it in Scotland.

 

[DJRas]

Question. It has often been mentioned on here, including by myself, that heavy Supercharging is not the trigger, citing examples of people that have Supercharged to excess, and topped up to 100% frequently (such as taxi drivers) who have not been affected. Are we 100% confident that there are such examples from owners of pre facelift, 350V (85, 70, 60) battery cars?

Yes, I visited one last Week in San Jose. 2012 S 70 lost 10% range overnight.

 

[swegman]

As a side note - and this is more out of curiosity - how is this actually affecting people's daily lives? I'm seeing range drops reported like 10-15% (for example, David Ramussen: 247->217mi). Were you guys actually charging to 100% daily before the drop?

• If so, then your batteries should be degraded even if there were nothing wrong with the pack, and it'd be your own fault. Everyone knows (or at least should know) that you're not supposed to charge to 100% daily unless you have absolutely no other choice (wherein even "slow" degradation will eventually ruin things for you).
• If not - if you were being responsible and charging only to 80-90% daily - then just change your daily charge to 95-100% and you've got your daily range back, and your level of stressing your batteries is exactly the same as it was before the update, because you're charging to the exact same voltage. Only long trips are affected.

Am I missing something? Is this just about trips?

I would normally charge to 89% and only charge to 100% if needed to get from a supercharger at point A to a supercharger at point B. I have been directly affected by this problem.

My car consistently charged to 227 miles at 89% (about 256 miles at 100%). I know this is accurate because I had to make a 250 mile trip between chargers, charged to 100% and made the trip with a few miles (about 5) to spare.

On June 19, my battery had a 74kWh capacity. On June 20, the firmware in the car was updated and the capacity immediately dropped to 70kWh and continued to dropped to 68kWh in less than 2 weeks from June 20. I asked the Florida service center to check the battery. They responded the battery is fine and the capacity loss and range loss is normal degradation, even though it occurred suddenly. They also said my battery is better than batteries in other cars of my age (2013 P85 with 60k miles). This is obviously false as my range is lower than other cars. My car’s range has dropped to 199 miles at 89% charge, a 28 mile drop. 100% charge is now 219 miles because the car now only charges to 98% maximum. Since my car’s actual battery consumption is more than 300 wpm (it’s lifetime average is 345 wpm) going further than 150 miles on a full charge is questionable.

I drove from Florida to Boston and nearly got stranded. With 28 miles to go to the next supercharger, the car said I had 14 miles range left. I had to drive at 45mph, with the last few miles being driven at 25mph to reach the charging site. Btw, I normally add 50% when charging to add a safety factor. That is, if the distance between two chargers is 100 miles, I charge to an indicated battery range of 150 miles. I stopped at a service center in Maryland and had them check the battery again. They replied, without testing the battery or checking logs, that Tesla intentionally reduced the range to reduce the possibility of car fires. Of course they would not put that statement in writing.

I continued on the drive to Boston, which took longer than normal because of the need to (1) make more frequent charging stops and (2) wait longer for the car to charge (it now takes about 1 hr to go from about 40 miles to about 85% and over 2 hrs to charger to 95% ( the last few percentage takes so long I haven’t sat at a supercharger to see how long it would be).

In Boston, the car “died”, giving several error messages including that the battery voltage is too low (it’s words, not mine), while the indicated battery range was 150 miles. Tesla sent a tow truck for the car. When the tow truck arrived the car worked. I still had them tow the car to check it out.

Several days later I got the car back and was told they couldn’t reproduce the problem, even though they saw the error messages in their system. I made it back to Florida (taking a day longer than usual due to the longer charging time and more frequent charging stops) and have a third appointment next week for Tesla to check the battery. In the meantime, the Florida service center has escalated the battery issue.

I have the P85 and a model 3. Other family members have Tesla cars. I also own stock in the company. I was thinking of upgrading to a newer S for the increased range. After experiencing Tesla removing battery capacity without telling me and getting my approval, I have given up on the idea.

Btw, I was contacted by the attorney that filed the class action lawsuit to become a member in the lawsuit. I have not spoken to him yet.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Yes, I visited one last Week in San Jose. 2012 S 70 lost 10% range overnight.

Excellent!

 

[lightningltd]

What in the world is this supposed to mean? Is there any other tricky explanation they have not pulled on us? Enough.

How about this one:
"In an abundance of caution in the wake of the impending Perseid meteor shower, we have made some minor adjustments to a very few selected vehicles to limit the amount of power stored in the battery in case a rogue meteor were to strike the vehicle and pierce the battery, resulting in the remote possibility of a fire. This is to protect the longevity of the battery and the vehicle. We assure you that there is nothing wrong and there is no need for concern. Most of the affected owners will notice no change in their daily driving enjoyment.
Please be sure to call support anytime with other issues, as this one is now closed."

 

[Ferrycraigs]

As a side note - and this is more out of curiosity - how is this actually affecting people's daily lives?

I thought initially, it would be pretty easy to accommodate the capping, by charging up a bit more to recoup the lost range.

I have an MS70, now capped to 58kWhs. When heading south on a long journey, there are 2 Supercharger sites on the primary route. One at 65 miles (too close) and one at 110 miles (our default stop). The SuC after that is 160 miles away; now too far for safety. At 110 miles the second site normally doesn’t even take a second thought. I drove this route today. Yesterday, in preparation, I charged up to 90% at my local Supercharger (11 miles away). By the time I got home, the SoC had dropped to 83%. A bit more than normal, but then my battery is a bit smaller now. This morning, my Vampire drain had been 3%, and I was now at 80%. Still no real problem. When I selected the second Supercharger, it estimated I would arrive with only 5% left. This was a great deal less than normal, but achievable, as I was heading to a Supercharger, so I would be prepared to arrive with single figure SoC. But the forecast en route was heavy rain. I find rain adds a significant amount to my consumption, which now made this journey unachievable. Even with the rain, my 70/would have not even flinched at this leg. We had to choose a different route. The second leg was again about 110 miles. At 90%, the car was saying I needed a further 5 minutes charging, (although that was probably more to do with the fact the Nav likes to add about a 20% buffer.). So even on what is normally a routine, very achievable journey, there is a tangible negative effect.

 

[thecloud]

Yes, I visited one last Week in San Jose. 2012 S 70 lost 10% range overnight.

Was it actually a 60 kWh pack?. There was no 'S 70' in 2012 (the 70 kWh pack wasn't introduced until 2015.)

 

[FredTMC]

I would normally charge to 89% and only charge to 100% if needed to get from a supercharger at point A to a supercharger at point B. I have been directly affected by this problem.

My car consistently charged to 227 miles at 89% (about 256 miles at 100%). I know this is accurate because I had to make a 250 mile trip between chargers, charged to 100% and made the trip with a few miles (about 5) to spare.

On June 19, my battery had a 74kWh capacity. On June 20, the firmware in the car was updated and the capacity immediately dropped to 70kWh and continued to dropped to 68kWh in less than 2 weeks from June 20. I asked the Florida service center to check the battery. They responded the battery is fine and the capacity loss and range loss is normal degradation, even though it occurred suddenly. They also said my battery is better than batteries in other cars of my age (2013 P85 with 60k miles). This is obviously false as my range is lower than other cars. My car’s range has dropped to 199 miles at 89% charge, a 28 mile drop. 100% charge is now 219 miles because the car now only charges to 98% maximum. Since my car’s actual battery consumption is more than 300 wpm (it’s lifetime average is 345 wpm) going further than 150 miles on a full charge is questionable.

I drove from Florida to Boston and nearly got stranded. With 28 miles to go to the next supercharger, the car said I had 14 miles range left. I had to drive at 45mph, with the last few miles being driven at 25mph to reach the charging site. Btw, I normally add 50% when charging to add a safety factor. That is, if the distance between two chargers is 100 miles, I charge to an indicated battery range of 150 miles. I stopped at a service center in Maryland and had them check the battery again. They replied, without testing the battery or checking logs, that Tesla intentionally reduced the range to reduce the possibility of car fires. Of course they would not put that statement in writing.

I continued on the drive to Boston, which took longer than normal because of the need to (1) make more frequent charging stops and (2) wait longer for the car to charge (it now takes about 1 hr to go from about 40 miles to about 85% and over 2 hrs to charger to 95% ( the last few percentage takes so long I haven’t sat at a supercharger to see how long it would be).

In Boston, the car “died”, giving several error messages including that the battery voltage is too low (it’s words, not mine), while the indicated battery range was 150 miles. Tesla sent a tow truck for the car. When the tow truck arrived the car worked. I still had them tow the car to check it out.

Several days later I got the car back and was told they couldn’t reproduce the problem, even though they saw the error messages in their system. I made it back to Florida (taking a day longer than usual due to the longer charging time and more frequent charging stops) and have a third appointment next week for Tesla to check the battery. In the meantime, the Florida service center has escalated the battery issue.

I have the P85 and a model 3. Other family members have Tesla cars. I also own stock in the company. I was thinking of upgrading to a newer S for the increased range. After experiencing Tesla removing battery capacity without telling me and getting my approval, I have given up on the idea.

Btw, I was contacted by the attorney that filed the class action lawsuit to become a member in the lawsuit. I have not spoken to him yet.

Oh wow. The Service Center verbally told you that the reduced range is to “reduce the possibility of car fires”.

Wow. That’s exactly as Jason believes. Me too.

Thanks for sharing

 

[mjmiron]

Oh wow. The Service Center verbally told you that the reduced range is to “reduce the possibility of car fires”.

Wow. That’s exactly as Jason believes. Me too.

Thanks for sharing

Where there is smoke there is fire.

 

[mymagiccarpet]

A bit off topic here, but still related re regen and recent SW updated. After May 15th update, I received multiple updates in June.
on topic, re regen:
One of those updates (I don't know which one but could maybe figure it out) seems to have reduced regen in some way. Specifically, I see the car slowing down much less above around 50mph. No yellow dashes, and green line seems to go all the way down, but car is slowing down considerably less than prior to these updates. I believe I also figured out that when car is hot (so not necessarily hot outside, but just car is hot, eg. sitting out or being driven in the sun for a while), the overall regen (I mean slowing down of the car) is much less.
Talked to SC, and got "customer education" resolution where regen is dependent on many factors - I don't doubt that, but it sure behaves different now.

this is a bit off topic re AC:
another one changed how my AC auto mode behaves. Typically I keep it at 74F, and it is comfortable - again this is in AUTO mode with re-circulation of air. After one update in July, suddenly I had to keep it at 70 to be even somewhat comfortable. There was no changes in weather that week or any other parameters (same time, same road, same temp, car parked in garage, etc). I did not make conclusion about this after one 5min ride. This was over multiple days, and am damn certain there was a change in behavior.
Change was again overnight right after SW update. Notified SC, and they pushed another update (no idea now if it was the same or a new update but was within a week of previous one), and miraculously back to 74F was very comfortable. Btw, car is tinted, including the roof.
28.2 seems to have changed that again. now i have to keep it at 70 again just to be somewhat comfortable. SC again pushed the update (at my request), and that didn't "fix it".
Anyone else has similar situation?