Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Droschke]

Attempts to continue to put some alterior motive on my contribution to this thread notwithstanding, my focus is to provide a data point.

You know that no impacted owner has ever viewed any of your posts as a "contribution" to the topic of this thread?

Annoyance and off topic passages, yes. Contribution, no. Yet, you keep going.

We know you are not impacted because you are so special. Repeating it and bragging about your un-impacted situation while scorning the impacted owners is outright preposterous.

 

[night0002]

I have a 2015 MS85D with 75K miles on it. Over the 4.5 years of ownership and the stated mileage, I have lost only about 6% (17 miles) of the original 270 mi of range. However, when traveling from AZ, I pulled into a supercharger (Del Mar Heights, CA) with the charge limit set at 90% and the charging stopped at 205 miles and I thought of this capping issue.

A couple of days later, as I plugged in, a message appeared that my charge limit was being reset to 80% due to the high volume of use at that location. The car charged to 203 miles and then stopped. So since my !00% is now 253 miles due to gradual degradation, I was in fact charged to 80%.

I fully expect that when I return home, that if I were to charge to 100% (something I now rarely do, except for an annual re-balancing of the cells) tat I would have about 253. At 90% of my now 253 mile hundred percent, I have been getting about 231 miles.

I have authorized all of the updates sent to me. The only time I have experienced capping appeared due to a factor outside of the vehicle, rather than any change in its firmware.

 

[DJRas]

I have a 2015 MS85D with 75K miles on it. Over the 4.5 years of ownership and the stated mileage, I have lost only about 6% (17 miles) of the original 270 mi of range. However, when traveling from AZ, I pulled into a supercharger (Del Mar Heights, CA) with the charge limit set at 90% and the charging stopped at 205 miles and I thought of this capping issue.

A couple of days later, as I plugged in, a message appeared that my charge limit was being reset to 80% due to the high volume of use at that location. The car charged to 203 miles and then stopped. So since my !00% is now 253 miles due to gradual degradation, I was in fact charged to 80%.

I fully expect that when I return home, that if I were to charge to 100% (something I now rarely do, except for an annual re-balancing of the cells) tat I would have about 253. At 90% of my now 253 mile hundred percent, I have been getting about 231 miles.

I have authorized all of the updates sent to me. The only time I have experienced capping appeared due to a factor outside of the vehicle, rather than any change in its firmware.

You are correct that your car does not appear to have been affected.
The 80% limit is particular to certain Supercharger location with high traffic.
It is an attempt to allow more people to charge - maybe not to where they want to... but they can charge.
I see that too and sometimes don't see the message that they changed the limit to 80% when my standard is 90%.

 

[meomyo]

IFthey can limit your charging to 80% think what else they can do to battery issues.Just sayin

 

[meomyo]

thanx for the info. It seems too long to me. i only charge till the kw start to go under 40 as my time is worth more then to sit there for another hour for the extra 20-30 miles: thats what sucks even though the screens will say 30 minutes to full charge..lol...its never correct.

What if you just charge to 100% daily..will this cause battery issues before 8 yrs so you can be under warrenty or will degradation be considered normal by tesla so it makes no difference?

 

[MP3Mike]

What if you just charge to 100% daily..will this cause battery issues before 8 yrs so you can be under warrenty or will degradation be considered normal by tesla so it makes no difference?

They would probably compare you with other cars that charged to 100% daily and say that your degradation was normal for your car/age/use/etc.

 

[MikeyC]

I used to be able to charge to 100% in about an hour from 30% (my new 15%).
This completely does not make sense now that my 100% is my old 87%.
It SHOULD be able to charge with 30 amps right up to the top since there is ZERO risk of exceeding 4.2 volts.

Unless they determined that 4.1v being the new max, has to be treated like 4.2v before. In other words, charging to 4.1v as if your max is still 4.2v and just stopping early might not have given them the safety margin they were looking for. If whatever has happened to the batteries gives them a new "usable" vMax of 4.1v instead of 4.2v, they may have to use the same step-downs in charging rate (by percent charge).

Think of the battery like a bucket. Let's say you only slow down filling the bucket when it reaches 90% full so the last bit of fuel doesn't splash out. Now, if something has happened to wear down the top of the bucket and make it smaller, you'd still have to slow down at 90% of the new (smaller) bucket size so some doesn't splash out.

Mike

 

[mjmiron]

Well looks like low temps and increased charging speed are the lead cause of Lithium Plating

:The faster the charging process, the more metallic lithium is formed. Up to 19 % of the lithium ions normally involved in the charging and discharging process take on the metallic form. (The measurements were made at -20 degrees Celsius).

During a 20-hour resting phase following a fast recharge some of the metallic lithium reacts with the graphite, intercalating between the graphite layers as lithium ions. It is effectively a delayed, slow charging process. Albeit, only a part of the lithium plating is reversible.

• Low temperatures encourage the formation of metallic lithium.

Here is link it’s an interesting study

Lithium-ion batteries: Phenomenon of 'lithium plating' during the charging process observed

Probably why batteries with slower charging are getting the reduction makes sense

 

[meomyo]

Well looks like low temps and increased charging speed are the lead cause of Lithium Plating

:The faster the charging process, the more metallic lithium is formed. Up to 19 % of the lithium ions normally involved in the charging and discharging process take on the metallic form. (The measurements were made at -20 degrees Celsius).

During a 20-hour resting phase following a fast recharge some of the metallic lithium reacts with the graphite, intercalating between the graphite layers as lithium ions. It is effectively a delayed, slow charging process. Albeit, only a part of the lithium plating is reversible.

• Low temperatures encourage the formation of metallic lithium.

Here is link it’s an interesting study

Lithium-ion batteries: Phenomenon of 'lithium plating' during the charging process observed

Probably why batteries with slower charging are getting the reduction makes sense

are you saying cars in colder places will have this issue more?

 

[Evoforce]

Well looks like low temps and increased charging speed are the lead cause of Lithium Plating

:The faster the charging process, the more metallic lithium is formed. Up to 19 % of the lithium ions normally involved in the charging and discharging process take on the metallic form. (The measurements were made at -20 degrees Celsius).

During a 20-hour resting phase following a fast recharge some of the metallic lithium reacts with the graphite, intercalating between the graphite layers as lithium ions. It is effectively a delayed, slow charging process. Albeit, only a part of the lithium plating is reversible.

• Low temperatures encourage the formation of metallic lithium.

Here is link it’s an interesting study

Lithium-ion batteries: Phenomenon of 'lithium plating' during the charging process observed

Probably why batteries with slower charging are getting the reduction makes sense

Not in a cold climate here... and still reduced.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

You know that no impacted owner has ever viewed any of your posts as a "contribution" to the topic of this thread?

Annoyance and off topic passages, yes. Contribution, no. Yet, you keep going.

We know you are not impacted because you are so special. Repeating it and bragging about your un-impacted situation while scorning the impacted owners is outright preposterous.

Déjà vu

 

[Evoforce]

Just downloaded new update 2019.32.1 and don't know what effect it will have. As a side note, I was able to talk to a live person that checked into my situation of having a loaner battery that had not been changed out. She agreed and said to schedule an appointment to have it changed out. So I will work at doing that next week and find out more of when it will be replaced. Wish me luck!

 

[jensk2]

OK, so it's just what I thought it was. It's not the OBDII connector by the diagnostic connector the canbus data comes on. The same plug I use with my Elm327. I think you'll lose the cubby since it has to be removed to get to the connector. @SmartElectric said it was an OBDII device which it can't be.

@SmartElectric , can you post a photo of where you have this device plugged in?

'Ok, so it is just what I thought it was'

Hmmm, I thought it to be common knowledge that Tesla provides tons of data on the Canbus and that you can either cable to a PC/USB or buy a Bluetooth dongle:

'Needs an ELM327 or STN1110 compatible OBD2 bluetooth adapter, and a special cable: OBD2->Tesla Diagnostic port cable. ('

and install apps like:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.emon.canbus.tesla&hl=en_US
and monitor Cell voltages and other data.

Details here:
scan my tesla

 

[sorka]

'Ok, so it is just what I thought it was'

Hmmm, I thought it to be common knowledge that Tesla provides tons of data on the Canbus and that you can either cable to a PC/USB or buy a Bluetooth dongle:

'Needs an ELM327 or STN1110 compatible OBD2 bluetooth adapter, and a special cable: OBD2->Tesla Diagnostic port cable. ('

and install apps like:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.emon.canbus.tesla&hl=en_US
and monitor Cell voltages and other data.

Details here:
scan my tesla

Yes, but @SmartElectric said he had this tracker plugged into the OBDII port which is what through me. It's actually plugged into the diagnostic port which means removing the cubby as long as you have it plugged in.

 

[mjmiron]

are you saying cars in colder places will have this issue more?

Not sure this was just info I pulled from one resource on batteries and it could be an issue I thought it was interesting enough to share

 

[GlennH]

This is exactly the issue.
Seemingly heathly batteries are being artificially capped and usable power is no longer available.

The only logical explanation is that they detected some defect that makes it dangerous to continue to charge to 4.2 volts.

Perhaps Tesla purposely restricts the battery from completely discharging because it may be to recover. Have you thought of this?

 

[Keshk]

Déjà vu

SmartElectric argument goes like he or someone is not impacted (or think not impacted), then there is no problem. All you impacted fellows shut up.

What a twisted logic ! Or, you wonder what axe been grinded here?

 

[Ferrycraigs]

With the frustration I'm see if my car had this issue personally I would keep it charged to 100% all the time until the battery had a failure. If the firmware is truly trying to protect an issue in the battery then trying to baby it won't help your cause, it will only limp it until the warranty runs out. It has a weak link somewhere in the pack just need to find it, break it and then you might get a new pack out of it or at least a repair.

A tempting plan, but if your battery is capped, charging it to 100% won’t achieve the effect you hope for. As I (now) understand it, the battery is still the same size (or spec). It’s just that 10 kWh has been made unavailable. It’s still there in the background. After capping all that happens is the BMS records 100% at the new, lower Vmax, normally around 80-85% of the old battery. But on the plus side, you can charge up to 100% almost with impunity as it’s really only charging to 85% of the spec. And it may get there quicker, and won’t have any negative effects on your battery.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

This is exactly the issue.
Seemingly heathly batteries are being artificially capped and usable power is no longer available.

The only logical explanation is that they detected some defect that makes it dangerous to continue to charge to 4.2 volts.

My battery has been capped. Tesla have told me my battery is healthy. Clearly it’s not as healthy as 99.5% of all the other batteries as Tesla has deemed it necessary to pre-emptively cap my battery. They won’t have taken this step for no reason. So my guess is when the say healthy, it’s similar to when they say 'coming soon'. ie they have their own definition of healthy. I suspect what they mean is 'within specification', rather than healthy. A Pack with a bunch of 'slightly' inferior cells, that are deteriorating slightly faster than the better Cells, but nonetheless still within spec, just, could be described as healthy I suppose, and capping the battery would indeed be likely to slow down that deterioration, delaying the point at which it will ultimately fail, or fall out of spec. That could certainly be described as for the longevity of the (healthy) battery.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

So the bottom line is... nothing has been taken from you, just the rest of us that have been capped and reduced you may feel that we should just accept it?

It hasn’t been stolen, so arguing theft is, I think, very likely to fail. It hasn’t been stolen; it’s still there, it just isn’t available. The house still has the same number of rooms, it’s just that a big bloke with a Tesla T Shirt is standing in the doorway of one room denying you access. Even though you paid for the whole house.