Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[DILIE]

An alternative description is that condition z is the degradation itself (even if not reflected in battery characteristics evident in normal use) and the volt capping is just how the BMS manages the degraded battery condition -- just as the BMS limits the battery in various ways according battery temperature too hot or too cold or too much flux capacitor resistance. This is just another way the BMS responds to the changing physical state of the battery.
Agreed

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. If the battery is degraded, in that the battery no longer holds the original charge capacity, no BMS action is necessary in response. The battery has already done what degradation requires, lost capacity. Using the BMS to further reduce capacity has nothing to do with degradation, as has been repeatedly stated (and ignored.)

"Hey, your battery lost 5% capacity, so the BMS is going to remove another 15%, because <made up stuff just to be disagreeable>."

 

[DILIE]

A design defect would be apparent in all or at least many more cases than we have here.

That is an absurd statement. Note this is not an attack, it is the proper use of the word "absurd". There is no minimum percentage of occurrence for an error to be designated a defect vs. <some other term you want to suggest?> In the IT industry we often have defects that affect very small percentages of parts, but across many thousands of installations become an issue that must be corrected.

Anyway, here's the definition of "design defect" from Cornell Law School. Very specific. Nothing about rate of occurrence.
Design Defect

In the law of products liability, a design defect exists when a defect is inherent in the design of the product itself. In a products liability case, a plaintiff can only establish a design defect exists when he proves there is hypothetical alternative design that would be safer that the original design, as economically feasible as the original design, and as practical as the original design, retaining the primary purpose behind the original design despite the changes made.​

Gratis:

ab·surd
/əbˈsərd,əbˈzərd/

adjective

wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate.
"the allegations are patently absurd"​

 

[Chaserr]

That is an absurd statement. Note this is not an attack, it is the proper use of the word "absurd". There is no minimum percentage of occurrence for an error to be designated a defect vs. <some other term you want to suggest?> In the IT industry we often have defects that affect very small percentages of parts, but across many thousands of installations become an issue that must be corrected.

Anyway, here's the definition of "design defect" from Cornell Law School. Very specific. Nothing about rate of occurrence.
Design Defect

In the law of products liability, a design defect exists when a defect is inherent in the design of the product itself. In a products liability case, a plaintiff can only establish a design defect exists when he proves there is hypothetical alternative design that would be safer that the original design, as economically feasible as the original design, and as practical as the original design, retaining the primary purpose behind the original design despite the changes made.​

Gratis:

ab·surd
/əbˈsərd,əbˈzərd/

adjective

wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate.
"the allegations are patently absurd"​

The NHTSA has no "minimum percentage of occurrence" for defects. It has issued recalls to BMW for 6 specific cars for transmission defects and VW had to recall 4 cars (the world record for smallest recall). Since we know Tesla has more than 4 impacted cars, it is absolutely "absurd" to claim Tesla's larger recall isn't meeting some imaginary minimum number.

It is my belief that Tesla's issue goes the other direction - the defect approaches 100% of all cars, and that is why they are unable to fix the problem. If it was a small number, it would not have been a problem it would have been a pre-2019 standard Tesla warranty treatment: Fix it quickly without making it a legal battle.

 

[DILIE]

It does not matter if it is lithium plating or something else, that is pointless speculation.

The capping is still done to cover a design or manufacturing defect. If Tesla programmed in too high charge rates with a cold battery or allowed the battery to be charged to a damaging voltage level then it is a design defect in BMS software.

I was just about to follow up on one of my own posts discussing design defects and read yours. Manufacturing defects are another common cause for failures in the field. You get a bunch of failures that are outside the expected fault parameters, you begin looking at production lots, and you find a common thread. You might fix it in firmware, but if the fix causes the component to no longer meet the original specifications (including any expected long-term degradation) the customer will demand you replace it. Generally with a lot based manufacturing defect the original manufacturer will provide monetary and other relief to the vendors.

Not replacing faulty components is a good way to see your business erode quickly.

 

[cpa]

That is an absurd statement. Note this is not an attack, it is the proper use of the word "absurd". There is no minimum percentage of occurrence for an error to be designated a defect vs. <some other term you want to suggest?> In the IT industry we often have defects that affect very small percentages of parts, but across many thousands of installations become an issue that must be corrected.

Anyway, here's the definition of "design defect" from Cornell Law School. Very specific. Nothing about rate of occurrence.
Design Defect

In the law of products liability, a design defect exists when a defect is inherent in the design of the product itself. In a products liability case, a plaintiff can only establish a design defect exists when he proves there is hypothetical alternative design that would be safer that the original design, as economically feasible as the original design, and as practical as the original design, retaining the primary purpose behind the original design despite the changes made.​

Gratis:

ab·surd
/əbˈsərd,əbˈzərd/

adjective

wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate.
"the allegations are patently absurd"​

So, let's take this arm chair law course further. Can we plaintiffs prove that there is a hypothetical alternative design? Does the fact that Tesla has changed its battery cell structure address this? If so, are these cells safer, and just as economically feasible and practical? Then we need to address the BMS. How many iterations of the BMS has Tesla adopted over the past 7 years?

One could argue that Tesla has already done all the heavy lifting. Tesla has changed battery design and chemistry. Tesla has continually tweaked the BMS. Tesla has come out with Raven (whatever that is) with 350+ miles of range, and people are buying it. Economics and practicality are proven.

What remains to be seen is whether the changes over the past four years have mostly solved the issues with the earlier batteries or not.

 

[omarsultan]

Man, you'd almost think certain folks on this thread are message testing for the defense counsel.

 

[DILIE]

I'm saying that if you have an engine with reduced compression, without a hole in it, the compression has degraded. If your tires are bald the tread has degraded.

Yes, that is how those components degrade. A thrown rod is a broken engine; not degraded. Not the best analogy. Try to get an engine with a thrown rod repaired under warranty and you're in for a long fight. If you can prove you maintained it according to schedule you may succeed.

A tire that shreds apart under normal usage is defective; not degraded. It is warranted. Most tires are also warranted against early degradation. I've had a number of discounted new tires due to prorated early wear.

You see, many good companies stand behind their products and warranties. It's a choice of how you treat your customers.

 

[omarsultan]

If nothing else, my "new" pack shows degradation and capping are two different things--pack is not capped, but is degraded.

 

[DILIE]

That spins back to his earlier aloha style re-purposing of the word to mean roughly "all bad things." We've moved on. He wants to know what Tesla's justifications for the thefts are now. I think at some level we all probably do, but none of us have been told so now he's up to date with everything except that vocab glitch that might resurface occasionally.

I do think you hit on it earlier. How many reported fires (outside of high energy collisions) have been reported since batterygate rolled out?

 

[Chaserr]

It went from every few weeks (or so it seemed) to few or none... but that could be coincidence. We still don't actually want this to have anything to do with fires whatsoever. That would mean Tesla would have to recall every battery withing a very wide range of builds... which could mean we lose Tesla. Takata had a recall with an unaffordably large number of cars, and while we got our new airbags, but we didn't get them from the now defunct Takata. I don't want Tesla to have been that guilty - if the recall doesn't drag them under the fines and massive blow to reputation from ignoring every safety law could mean we end up getting our cars fixed at some ICE dealership and I don't want that. I just want them to admit they tried to break Magnuson Moss guarantees on warranties and be stick around to fix everything.

 

[cynix]

How is batterygate/chargegate impacting residual value of old Teslas? I hope to trade in my S for a new Tesla this year but am very concerned the chargegate factor is killing my car’s resale value.

Resale value I don’t know, but I would hope trade-in value isn’t affected in any way, since you’re trading it in with Tesla, and Tesla claims there’s nothing wrong with your car

 

[DILIE]

It went from every few weeks (or so it seemed) to few or none... but that could be coincidence. We still don't actually want this to have anything to do with fires whatsoever. That would mean Tesla would have to recall every battery withing a very wide range of builds... which could mean we lose Tesla. .

There are still a lot of uncapped cars, including mine. I assume that means Tesla doesn't think my car is in danger of immolating itself. The sudden frequent occurrences of "Charging limited, get it serviced NOW!" alerts sounds like maybe they can identify cars with greater potential to spontaneously combust. It's basically the right response to the original issue. Those cars were otherwise working just fine, why else would Tesla suddenly want to substantially limit their output?

It's funny... I haven't taken a road trip in a while. Last one was to Tulsa and we didn't take the Tesla for two reasons:

1. You have to go through OKC to get to Tulsa with a high degree of charging certainty.
2. My wife didn't want to sit charging for an hour or more to achieve #1.

Pretty much looking at 2-3 hours longer to take the world's fanciest golf cart.

Other than this my anger at the last trip with slow supercharging has faded and I've been loving Greysie again. After all, it isn't her fault her daddy cut her beautiful long curls!

But I know the next time we are headed somewhere and my wife says we're taking my truck I'm going to get the red-ass again. I have to choose between $$hundreds in gas or having my wife chewing on my rear end for however long we're sitting at the Collin Street Bakery.

I don't have range anxiety in the traditional sense, more when I unplug the charger, get in, and then do the quick math to see if I've won the capping lottery and (to mis-quote the little green guy) It's Magically Degraded!

 

[First EV]

Perhaps if I simply ask the question w/o an accompanying wall of text...

QUESTION:
How is batterygate/chargegate impacting residual value of old Teslas? I hope to trade in my S for a new Tesla this year but am very concerned the chargegate factor is killing my car’s resale value.

I recommend selling it yourself. From what I have read and experienced Tesla trade in offers on any vehicle Tesla or any other make are very uncompetitive.

 

[First EV]

It must have had some impact to any prospective buyer in the know. Anyone who isn’t aware will probably still decide based on range, price, mileage, options etc

Prices in the UK don’t appear to be hugely affected yet based on what I’ve seen for sale but that doesn’t necessarily reflect prices that buyers are willing to pay.

Once we know if/how Tesla will remedy capped batteries then that could also move prices up or down depending on the outcome of the class action.

I was massively worried before but I’ve still got 4 years warranty on my battery which will probably fail at some point and be replaced anyway.

My capped 85D still has 234 miles range at 100% and SC speeds in excess of 100kwh for a few seconds at least under the right conditions.

If a buyer is in the know would they still be a buyer. Meaning who knowing what is going on would buy a model S? I certainly wouldn't and I loved my S. Seams best to wait for the outcome of the lawsuit first.

 

[tinm]

I read the full Complaint and it is not clear to me chargegate-but-not-batterygate cars are eligible as Plaintiffs.

My charge rate is clearly halved; I no longer plan to take my S on super-long trips because it would add to many hours of charging per day. It’s like a return to charging at KOA sites in the old days, geez. This was not supposed to happen.

 

[Gixx1300R]

I read the full Complaint and it is not clear to me chargegate-but-not-batterygate cars are eligible as Plaintiffs.

My charge rate is clearly halved; I no longer plan to take my S on super-long trips because it would add to many hours of charging per day. It’s like a return to charging at KOA sites in the old days, geez. This was not supposed to happen.

Kinda like bait and switch, isn't it

 

[yobigd20]

Tesla Changes Warranty Terms To Shield Against Recent Issues

WOW. just WOW. Tesla updates their warranty terms to state that can cap your battery pack capacity and performance at their discretion and that it is not covered under warranty. That obvious is their direct response to this thread and clearly shows the path they are taking about not fixing any of this on their own dollar. They also said this new warranty supersedes any previous warranty (which we know is not legal for them to do). They also said if you don’t click update when your car gets an update then your warranty is voided. Like holy *sugar* WTF are they smoking. Man between this and all that goodwill bullshit and not reporting defects warranty repairs they really don’t want take any responsibility for their own defects and mistakes.

They also added lines for not covering discoloration and wrinkles in the interior seats , I have to LOL on that one because of all the idiotic entitled owners posting pics on Facebook when they see a crease in their leather or bought white seats that got dirty and post that are making service appointments to get them replaced hahah

Also seems like they are reverting from their unlimited mile warranty and now capped it at 150k miles. Guess Tesloop’s not going to be happy about that one.

 

[Keshk]

Man, you'd almost think certain folks on this thread are message testing for the defense counsel.

That is so clear

 

[First EV]

Tesla Changes Warranty Terms To Shield Against Recent Issues

WOW. just WOW. Tesla updates their warranty terms to state that can cap your battery pack capacity and performance at their discretion and that it is not covered under warranty. That obvious is their direct response to this thread and clearly shows the path they are taking about not fixing any of this on their own dollar. They also said this new warranty supersedes any previous warranty (which we know is not legal for them to do). They also said if you don’t click update when your car gets an update then your warranty is voided. Like holy *sugar* WTF are they smoking. Man between this and all that goodwill bullshit and not reporting defects warranty repairs they really don’t want take any responsibility for their own defects and mistakes.

They also added lines for not covering discoloration and wrinkles in the interior seats , I have to LOL on that one because of all the idiotic entitled owners posting pics on Facebook when they see a crease in their leather or bought white seats that got dirty and post that are making service appointments to get them replaced hahah

Also seems like they are reverting from their unlimited mile warranty and now capped it at 150k miles. Guess Tesloop’s not going to be happy about that one.

What's interesting is the commenters who refer to any issue being addressed as FUD or a non issue. Their mo seams to be to belittle anyone's problem since it hasn't happened to them and must be made up. I wonder how fast their kool aid fueled opinions will change when the honeymoon is over and Tesla denies their warranty claim. Now even more greatful I didn't buy a 3.

 

[johnman10]

Need some advise from US folks. My car is also capped for around 9 months and I obviously also get the same 'your battery is fine' from the service center. I will give them one last chance in 3 weeks in a service appointment I have scheduled and then start legal actions. My issue is that I live in the Netherlands (Dutch car). Do you know if I can jump onboard the class action US lawsuit and send my data to the NHTSA? Or is this only for US cars and I have to start the same here locally (local lawsuit and investigation request to the RDW which is the Dutch equivelant of NHTSA). Any advise anyone?