Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[mymagiccarpet]

On my 70D I got my battery replaced august '17 - with the above part number. An even the battery only had driven 70.000km in may '19 - and not much Super charging done in this battery - I also got reduced SuC speed with 2019.20.1

JustADude and Kim.T

what battery did you get as replacement? still 70kw? new or reman?

 

[mymagiccarpet]

Complained again to my SC about battery capping for the 3rd or 4th time. I stated that battery charged full prior to SW update, and after SW update it was 12% down, so to make it clear, I'm not complaining about degradation. Car was bought 2 months prior with only 21k miles, and charged full 2 times prior to May 15.
I noted that I've given Tesla 9 months to figure things out and fix this. So my patience has expired.
They provided a battery report that shows mine is 0.1% better than average of the fleet, i.e. nothing's wrong with your battery. To which I replied - I'm well aware of that, I never said there is anything wrong with it, so if there is nothing wrong, why cap it?

No matter how you look at it, 4 years, or 34k miles, 12% is just too much, and considering that I charge no more than 30% at SC, mainly due to trips, and rarely ever to 100% (well nowdays I can't even get to "new" 100% on trips b/c it takes hours, so I charge to new 90% and move). I never let it sit at new 90%+ SOC. Though it does run its pump any time when charged over new 80%, so I'm not even sure I have to worry about it.

SC people I talked to were very nice, understanding and responsive. They were very polite, and listened. We didn't agree, but it was a calm and friendly conversation. I asked them to provide a name at Tesla who I can discuss this further. They said they'll follow up.

The explanations varied, and are all things I've heard before. I'll write them down, though not in order of the conversation. Comments in parentheses are not what i said in response, but comments for the forum):

• It is degradation, normal is about 4% a year (I wish I knew that before I bought it, I thought Elon himself claimed very differently)
• SW update and capping of battery was was done to protect the battery (from what exactly? b/c I do try to take care of it using Tesla's own instructions)
• It is due to the age of the battery (so I guess traveled mileage should directly correlate to times charged? if yes, then 4 years is bad, but 34k miles does not help? If true, then why limit warranty based on mileage?)
• you have a lot of supercharging on your battery (how much SC can I have at 34k miles in 4 years? and even then, with a "lot" of SC, my battery is a bit better than average of the fleet?)
  • I asked here what is a lot, and there was no definitive answer here (watch Tesla now define this number as right below what i specified above for my SC ratio)
• new SW was now better able to recognize degradation that existed
  • ok, makes sense. Some new important parameter was discovered and added to algorithm. That's called a defect.
  • secondly, how was I able to travel more before capping if degradation was already there? - i didn't get an answer to that
  • thirdly, that means they sold me the car with severely degraded battery and didn't disclose it (though, this probably won't be significantly relevant complaint)
• I stated that none of these explanations are acceptable to me as this was done at the will of Tesla, without my approval, and I also paid for what they just took away. Furthermore, my car has lost value due to their deliberate action. I've received no explanation why it was done, whether the car is safe or not, etc... This is unacceptable, and I want to speak someone at Tesla before taking next action.

I think this summarizes all the responses we've seen so far. Some are conflicting with each other. Nothing new. The company still has "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. Though it is not at the will or fault of SC employees. None of this makes any sense. The company is simply not standing behind its product based on what we currently see.

 

[johnman10]

Complained again to my SC about battery capping for the 3rd or 4th time. I stated that battery charged full prior to SW update, and after SW update it was 12% down, so to make it clear, I'm not complaining about degradation. Car was bought 2 months prior with only 21k miles, and charged full 2 times prior to May 15.
I noted that I've given Tesla 9 months to figure things out and fix this. So my patience has expired.
They provided a battery report that shows mine is 0.1% better than average of the fleet, i.e. nothing's wrong with your battery. To which I replied - I'm well aware of that, I never said there is anything wrong with it, so if there is nothing wrong, why cap it?

No matter how you look at it, 4 years, or 34k miles, 12% is just too much, and considering that I charge no more than 30% at SC, mainly due to trips, and rarely ever to 100% (well nowdays I can't even get to "new" 100% on trips b/c it takes hours, so I charge to new 90% and move). I never let it sit at new 90%+ SOC. Though it does run its pump any time when charged over new 80%, so I'm not even sure I have to worry about it.

SC people I talked to were very nice, understanding and responsive. They were very polite, and listened. We didn't agree, but it was a calm and friendly conversation. I asked them to provide a name at Tesla who I can discuss this further. They said they'll follow up.

The explanations varied, and are all things I've heard before. I'll write them down, though not in order of the conversation. Comments in parentheses are not what i said in response, but comments for the forum):

• It is degradation, normal is about 4% a year (I wish I knew that before I bought it, I thought Elon himself claimed very differently)
• SW update and capping of battery was was done to protect the battery (from what exactly? b/c I do try to take care of it using Tesla's own instructions)
• It is due to the age of the battery (so I guess traveled mileage should directly correlate to times charged? if yes, then 4 years is bad, but 34k miles does not help? If true, then why limit warranty based on mileage?)
• you have a lot of supercharging on your battery (how much SC can I have at 34k miles in 4 years? and even then, with a "lot" of SC, my battery is a bit better than average of the fleet?)
  • I asked here what is a lot, and there was no definitive answer here (watch Tesla now define this number as right below what i specified above for my SC ratio)
• new SW was now better able to recognize degradation that existed
  • ok, makes sense. Some new important parameter was discovered and added to algorithm. That's called a defect.
  • secondly, how was I able to travel more before capping if degradation was already there? - i didn't get an answer to that
  • thirdly, that means they sold me the car with severely degraded battery and didn't disclose it (though, this probably won't be significantly relevant complaint)
• I stated that none of these explanations are acceptable to me as this was done at the will of Tesla, without my approval, and I also paid for what they just took away. Furthermore, my car has lost value due to their deliberate action. I've received no explanation why it was done, whether the car is safe or not, etc... This is unacceptable, and I want to speak someone at Tesla before taking next action.

I think this summarizes all the responses we've seen so far. Some are conflicting with each other. Nothing new. The company still has "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. Though it is not at the will or fault of SC employees. None of this makes any sense. The company is simply not standing behind its product based on what we currently see.

Well said. Now the question is, what are we going to do about it? I have already decided that I am willing to waste another Model S in lawyer costs

 

[Chaserr]

and even then, with a "lot" of SC, my battery is a bit better than average of the fleet?

The "Your battery is the best we've ever seen" type excuses are a line they tell everyone. It's probably on the script they are given from Tesla corporate legal of things they are allowed to say to avoid making this worse on them. I believe something similar was already on the German language memo leaked here months ago of the talking points they have to use when addressing batterygate customers.

And isn't it strange they have such a rigid response world wide for such a "a small number of customers" rather than contacting us one at a time in private to address the problem quietly without the huge court loss and publicity problems that will cost them so much?

 

[Droschke]

new SW was now better able to recognize degradation that existed
...

• ... how was I able to travel more before capping if degradation was already there? - i didn't get an answer to that

That position taken by Tesla is a purely made up excuse to deflect your complaint and, honestly, I'm not sure how many owners have fallen for it.

Pre-2109.16.x update, like yourself, I too was able to consistently achieve the Rated Miles shown on my instrument cluster, especially on long trips.

 

[mckeegs]

I am just getting "max battery reduced" messages this week on an older P85. appreciate all the info here

 

[johnman10]

I am not into conspiracy theories at all, but can someone please give me a valid reason not to believe that the maximum charging message will be more and more frequent as time goes by?

 

[gmo43]

Complained again to my SC about battery capping for the 3rd or 4th time. I stated that battery charged full prior to SW update, and after SW update it was 12% down, so to make it clear, I'm not complaining about degradation. Car was bought 2 months prior with only 21k miles, and charged full 2 times prior to May 15.
I noted that I've given Tesla 9 months to figure things out and fix this. So my patience has expired.
They provided a battery report that shows mine is 0.1% better than average of the fleet, i.e. nothing's wrong with your battery. To which I replied - I'm well aware of that, I never said there is anything wrong with it, so if there is nothing wrong, why cap it?

No matter how you look at it, 4 years, or 34k miles, 12% is just too much, and considering that I charge no more than 30% at SC, mainly due to trips, and rarely ever to 100% (well nowdays I can't even get to "new" 100% on trips b/c it takes hours, so I charge to new 90% and move). I never let it sit at new 90%+ SOC. Though it does run its pump any time when charged over new 80%, so I'm not even sure I have to worry about it.

SC people I talked to were very nice, understanding and responsive. They were very polite, and listened. We didn't agree, but it was a calm and friendly conversation. I asked them to provide a name at Tesla who I can discuss this further. They said they'll follow up.

The explanations varied, and are all things I've heard before. I'll write them down, though not in order of the conversation. Comments in parentheses are not what i said in response, but comments for the forum):

• It is degradation, normal is about 4% a year (I wish I knew that before I bought it, I thought Elon himself claimed very differently)
• SW update and capping of battery was was done to protect the battery (from what exactly? b/c I do try to take care of it using Tesla's own instructions)
• It is due to the age of the battery (so I guess traveled mileage should directly correlate to times charged? if yes, then 4 years is bad, but 34k miles does not help? If true, then why limit warranty based on mileage?)
• you have a lot of supercharging on your battery (how much SC can I have at 34k miles in 4 years? and even then, with a "lot" of SC, my battery is a bit better than average of the fleet?)
  • I asked here what is a lot, and there was no definitive answer here (watch Tesla now define this number as right below what i specified above for my SC ratio)
• new SW was now better able to recognize degradation that existed
  • ok, makes sense. Some new important parameter was discovered and added to algorithm. That's called a defect.
  • secondly, how was I able to travel more before capping if degradation was already there? - i didn't get an answer to that
  • thirdly, that means they sold me the car with severely degraded battery and didn't disclose it (though, this probably won't be significantly relevant complaint)
• I stated that none of these explanations are acceptable to me as this was done at the will of Tesla, without my approval, and I also paid for what they just took away. Furthermore, my car has lost value due to their deliberate action. I've received no explanation why it was done, whether the car is safe or not, etc... This is unacceptable, and I want to speak someone at Tesla before taking next action.

I think this summarizes all the responses we've seen so far. Some are conflicting with each other. Nothing new. The company still has "we are right, you are wrong" attitude. Though it is not at the will or fault of SC employees. None of this makes any sense. The company is simply not standing behind its product based on what we currently see.

Love this! They never have a good answer besides the one they think is a good one. Which is the compared to the fleet response. In which my response is I don't care about the rest of fleet, I care about my car and know there's something wrong with it. Wish I could have used different words but what is that going to get me a new battery? Lol

Edit spell check

 

[gmo43]

I am just getting "max battery reduced" messages this week on an older P85. appreciate all the info here

Can you give us info on your car? Year, battery size, firmware and what actually happened when you got that message? What was your 100% charge at for rated miles?

 

[omarsultan]

I'm curious, for those of you who had your batteries replaced, when you got the new batteries, had the status been reset so that the battery odometer was effectively zero after it was installed, along with the charging statistics for AC and DC charging, or were they notably non-zero?

My replacement came with history attached.

 

[Chaserr]

someone please give me a valid reason not to believe that the maximum charging message will be more and more frequent as time goes by?

OK I'll try... at some point in the future there won't be any more defective Teslas left to trigger that error...

Best I can do, probably not as reassuring as you were hoping for depending on how you interpret "none left"

 

[thenaimis]

My replacement came with history attached.

Was it your car's history or another car's history? I inferred from @Kim-t's post that their battery took on the history of their car rather than preserving the history of the battery itself.

 

[omarsultan]

Was it your car's history or another car's history? I inferred from @Kim-t's post that their battery took on the history of their car rather than preserving the history of the battery itself.

Mine came with the prior history of the battery. If you dig back though my post history, you can see the the data from TM-Spy for old and new battery pack.

 

[Kim.T]

JustADude and Kim.T

what battery did you get as replacement? still 70kw? new or reman?

I got mine replace 2,5 year ago, with a reman.
I wish I have had access to can-bus data at that time, so that I could have compare before/after values of the batteries.

 

[Leeboy22001]

It would appear that uncapped batteries at 100% have a Vmax of 4.18V (2% down from 4.2V), this is from a 2017 Model S75 with around 30k miles. Looking at usable capacity, this is now 70.9kWh, which is 2% down from its official usable capacity of 72.5kWh. Without getting a spread of data, Tesla could have reduced ALL unaffected batteries by 2%, which many owners wouldn't notice.

 

[Muffinman]

I read vmax=4.198v. Be sure to read just before charging to 100% finishes as vmax is maximum applied voltage. Voltage will imediately drop slightly after finishing due to the small load from car systems. Also, it is normal to see 75-packs drop relatively fast to 70ish nominal due to initial degradation. Packs are not 100% equal as new capacity wise, and 72,5 probably is a preset. As the car is initually used and the pack cycled BMS will calibrate to actual value.

 

[bhzmark]

new SW was now better able to recognize degradation that existed

• ok, makes sense. Some new important parameter was discovered and added to algorithm. That's called a defect

Right it makes sense. It is degradation, which is specifically not a defect. Or are you saying the prior version of the software not sensing this degradation (i.e., Condition Z) is the defect. And the belated remedy for the software missing that measurement is an insufficient remedy for that past defect? That might have some legs. But note it is now the old software, that some want to keep, that is the defect rather than the battery’s degradation.

thirdly, that means they sold me the car with severely degraded battery and didn't disclose it (though, this probably won't be significantly relevant complaint)

This likely is a relevant complaint. Focus on this point.

 

[Chaserr]

It would appear that uncapped batteries at 100% have a Vmax of 4.18V (2% down from 4.2V), this is from a 2017 Model S75 with around 30k miles. Looking at usable capacity, this is now 70.9kWh, which is 2% down from its official usable capacity of 72.5kWh. Without getting a spread of data, Tesla could have reduced ALL unaffected batteries by 2%, which many owners wouldn't notice.

That would be capped, by definition. Just not as badly.

 

[Chaserr]

For people talking about "recognizing degradation that existed" you're not talking about degradation. Degradation can't be recognized. It's like rust it either is or isn't and artificially creating it in a reversable way means it isn't.

If you're STILL trying to intriduce that red herring into this topic, please stop because you're trying to create fights and it's not amusing to everyone else. Start a new thread about any sort of science denial you wish, this is not one where it applies. You're in the wrong place for that and you know it, you've been told hundreds of times and by now you have no excuse.

 

[DILIE]

It would appear that uncapped batteries at 100% have a Vmax of 4.18V (2% down from 4.2V)

Vmin isn't zero, so it's more than 2%. I know it's been discussed here, but not finding it right off. It's fairly high, in the 3V range?