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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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I agree with you Chaserr. But what would you think if tomorrow your battery was mysteriously uncapped?
I'd think that Tesla - as always - screwed up and accidentally reverted something once again. I'd stop updating and immediately rip out my SIM card.

Technology often out paces laws, hopefully the laws will catch up and squash this type of behavior.

It would be one thing to advise owners of a temporary change or even ask owners' permissions to carry out investigation to their car's performance while an issue is investigated. Obviously requires massive understanding / tolerance from owners and openness from Tesla. Almost requires an amnesty for Tesla so they don't incriminate themselves just for being cautious. But completely different situation when you (for whatever reason) end up with under-performing / dangerous goods that Tesla tries to coax past warranty periods just to dodge their obligations.

OTA changes desperately need legal regulation and third party monitoring.

The most wide-sweeping end result of all of this is OTA being controlled for all companies, probably something like the NHTSA needing to OK every update personally. Tesla will probably be responsible for updates slowing to a crawl with new ones only approved every 3 - 6 months (maybe definitely).
 
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We know they can't cap for safety reasons - Illegal.

The NHTSA does allow temporary substitutions for safety - but Tesla has denied these caps are a safety or NHTSA related problem.
Going by Wiki's Plug-in Vehicle Fires page section on Tesla there were 2 in 2016, 1 in 2018, and 5 in 2019, and none since. This for Model S and Model X, not counting crashes. Five within a one year period prior to and only one since the capping.

Maybe not enough data to be statistically certain, but certainly remarkable. They definitely couldn't keep having cars burn on the nightly news.
 
My mileage is 112,187 Here are screens shots of the BMSView attachment 530153
Gixx1300R, which SW did the increase in capacity come with (or appears to have come with)?

I'm trying to install 2020.12.5 tonight.

I know it's not exactly on the topic, but is related. If someone can point me to where this might have been discussed, that would be great. Lately when i try to install new SW, it counts down, and it does nothing. It's happening again tonight. Last time, I asked SC to help. Seems like they pushed it, and nothing happened, and then they did it again and it finally installed. I did close front windows before they pushed it the second time - no idea if that blocked it, but would like to hear if someone knows. That said, tonight, windows are not down, so that should not be blocking it. I feel like if SW update does not start, it should throw some error visible by SC. So either it does not, or they are not telling me. Similarly to how my car sometimes slams on the breaks by itself when I'm exiting the garage without anything in its path o_O, but no word from SC on why after I sent bug report and timestamp.
 
Gixx1300R, which SW did the increase in capacity come with (or appears to have come with)?

I'm trying to install 2020.12.5 tonight.

I know it's not exactly on the topic, but is related. If someone can point me to where this might have been discussed, that would be great. Lately when i try to install new SW, it counts down, and it does nothing. It's happening again tonight. Last time, I asked SC to help. Seems like they pushed it, and nothing happened, and then they did it again and it finally installed. I did close front windows before they pushed it the second time - no idea if that blocked it, but would like to hear if someone knows. That said, tonight, windows are not down, so that should not be blocking it. I feel like if SW update does not start, it should throw some error visible by SC. So either it does not, or they are not telling me. Similarly to how my car sometimes slams on the breaks by itself when I'm exiting the garage without anything in its path o_O, but no word from SC on why after I sent bug report and timestamp.

After I downloaded 2020.12 I checked my usable full pack, it was 59kWh, several weeks I scanned the battery pack again and it was 66.1Kwh. There were no other downloads of software. I downloaded 2020.12.5 last night and I still have 66kWh usable full pack.
 
... Lately when i try to install new SW, it counts down, and it does nothing. It's happening again tonight. Last time, I asked SC to help. Seems like they pushed it, and nothing happened, and then they did it again and it finally installed. I did close front windows before they pushed it the second time - no idea if that blocked it, but would like to hear if someone knows. That said, tonight, windows are not down, so that should not be blocking it. I feel like if SW update does not start, it should throw some error visible by SC. So either it does not, or they are not telling me...

I had a similar experience with 2020.8.1.1 install.

Few attempts to install via Tesla app failed quickly. Tried to install while inside the car by pressing "Install now" and quickly exiting the car only to find out the installs had failed again.

Finally, it worked when I unplugged the charging cable and while inside the car I waited for both IC and the 17" display to completely boot up (waited about 5 minutes while sitting in the driver's seat) before hitting "Install now" and leave the car. Looks like I had to let the car completely up after a deep sleep before starting a successful install (in 5 years of ownership, this behavior was definitely new for my car).
 
Maybe not enough data to be statistically certain, but certainly remarkable. They definitely couldn't keep having cars burn on the nightly news.
We have to hope Tesla didn't cap anyone to stop those fires. The legal repercussions of NOT fixing a problem that Tesla knows causes fires would be monumental - which is why the NHTSA is scrutinizing Tesla. And tesla absolutely HAS NOT fixed any of those fire problems with capping. Reduced the likelihood of them, certainly, but if they capped to reduce fires it means the secrecy surrounding the caps is explicitly because they do not want to fix anything - and that's also why they are in trouble for not reporting. Federal law requires fixing, not theft.

We know the caps are because of those fires though. Tesla told us themselves in a public admission released to the press.
 
We have to hope Tesla didn't cap anyone to stop those fires.
Modifying the software to prevent the fires is a valid method for mitigation. The collateral impact on the owners and how the change was done, including communications is the primary issue. Everything is run by software now. Software and firmware prevents all kinds of devices from reaching potentially damaging environmental states.
 
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Why would you hope Tesla didn't cap because of fires when you say you know they did it because of those fires?
"As we continue our investigation of the root cause, out of an abundance of caution, we are revising charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air software update that will begin rolling out today, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity,"

I believe Tesla's statement after the Shanghai fire is very straight forward
 
Why would you hope Tesla didn't cap because of fires when you say you know they did it because of those fires?
Because Tesla lies, and if they were telling the truth it means they're dangerous criminals risking peoples' lives just to save money.

Modifying the software to prevent the fires is a valid method for mitigation.
No, it's invalid. We have no idea whether mitigation was done. All we know is mitigation was not done. It's dangerous, illegal, and irresponsible for Tesla to avoid reporting fire hazards to the authorities or owners. Secret downgrades are not mitigation - mitigation comes from impartial third party federal agencies.

It's possible Tesla reduced the chances of fire, but this is just a guess. Mitigation of safety problems this dangerous is a matter of public safety. Nothing was ever reported to the public, otherwise I would just post a scan of the NHTSA recall letter I was mailed about this problem.

The only way for capping to have been valid would have been for Tesla to comply with federal safety laws and report the problem to the NHTSA and us. The NHTSA might then allow capping temporarily, while Tesla does whatever it needs to do to scale up recalls for every potentially impacted battery. They would mail notifications to us and post the recall information on NHTSA website.

Secrecy and downgrades aren't fire safety mitigation, they are illegal methods of profit. As of today Tesla is at least 350 days overdue on the federal deadline to legally report their discovery of defects leading to fire in our batteries.
 
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I'd stop updating and immediately rip out my SIM card.
Good point CsR, didn't wk507 offer some kind of gateway to redirect Cellular traffic away from Tesla while still allowing app access, Navigation, streaming services? Great project for the entrepreneurial.

One owner, @swegman , was told by Tesla SC that his capped pack was chosen to be part of a "test group":
Great pickup Dr! Thank you for sharing that.

While skeptical because of controversy, I think the bleed resistors behavior has been modified since the 05/2019 update. My intentions in bringing this up isn't to pour salt in the wounds. Our cars are very expensive and any purposeful action to degrade this financial value is nefarious. IMO there isn't any battery charging methods that play into capping or battery degradation based on pack balance.

Tesla knows causes fires
While not defending Tesla nor countering what they know, I think it's more complicated than that. But please believe me when I share how GM ruined my Chevy Volt with a forced software update. I enjoyed being able to leave it running on battery to air-condition while shopping, camping while plugged-in, etc.

The key to success in the EV market is solving battery longevity. Tesla went all in when other manufactures wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket. Tesla relies heavily on AI to solve this and vision (autopilot). But Tesla infamously underestimates timelines and product production. Tesla's rational is unwarranted because they take our deposits and property to vanguard the technology industry.
They had to insidiously recruit us into this experiment because we would never volunteer our expensive machines and Tesla can't tip off it's competitors. If they do solve the battery problem, it gives them a head start over the competition. No doubt every car manufacturer is chomping at the bit to rip off Tesla because solving the battery problem is extremely difficult and expensive. And think about how many CPO owners would try to make the battery fail by manipulating the matrices used to evaluate a battery.

I can't predict the future but I believe what I am about to share fits well. Tesla designed battery packs to be ad hoc, tentative performance extraction devices. The method of extracting this performance would change with wear but recognizing and rectifying would require data. The hope is that AI that can solve this without relying on battery chemistry, pack version, etc. The underlying degradation patterns across the whole of all these different battery configurations would require individual solutions for performance extraction.

All of our higher milage batteries contain both good and not so good cells. My old Honda Accord Hybrid periodically threw an IMA light. The NiMH pack needed to be drained via 60 W lightbulb and fully charged using a DIY 350V grid charger made from LED light drivers in a series. I believe Tesla did right with higher cell count packs (fifth paragraph). Maybe it allows greater data resolution in studying the data.

If this is close to the truth:
1) My feelings won't be as hurt because Tesla wouldn't be doing this just to cover there ass at our expense (like GM did to my Volt).
2) The innovation on future products would be tangible enough for me to be a fanboy again.
3) I'd have a "little" more peace over warranty replacement requirements than where we're at presently.
4) Because of the data Model S owners created, powertrain upgrade options can offered based on hardware changes that enhance software longevity.
5) Uncapping restores value to sell and upgrade.

I admit this is me being an optimist. More often than not, the opposite is true. I don't expect Tesla to make ground breaking changes in technology like Solid State batteries. Perhaps ultracapacitors could mitigate wear on the battery packs but likened to Chaserr's stance, this leans more toward a defect that can be arbitrated. More like evidence based software enhancement news around mid-May.

Please challenge/criticize anything I may have overlooked. Thank you.
 
If uncapping was safely possible, Tesla wouldn't be spending so much money to keep the caps in place forever. They know they will have to pay a lot more $$$ to uncap, which is why we know they are criminals. All we're doing here is debating which specific crimes they're guilty of committing. The caps WILL be removed - probably not until batteries are replaced though, and delaying allows them to continue to put more money into their warranty funds - as of last quarter they had near to $1B set aside for rainy day recalls, didn't they?

Defects like this can't be arbitrated - Tesla needs to replace defective hardware with equal or better hardware, they can not legally downgrade anyone for safety or for warranty. Which is why they lied for so long.

New imaginary technologies might what Tesla hopes ewill save them from doing the right thing years later, but delays aren't forever and Tesla knows it. The NHTSA is going to issue recalls in a few months to a year, and at that point they have to pay fines, face criminal charges, and begin replacing batteries involuntarily.

This isn't an "early adopter" or technology learning curve issue. It's just Tesla breaking federal laws all car manufacturers have to follow. Laws that had to be followed to avoid Tesla intentionally shredding its safety reputation and killing any trust in its warranty. Batterygate is illegal, and there are no reasons for any company to get away with something like this. All Tesla is doing is increasing the damage to how people perceive all electric cars when this finally reaches federal prosecution. They should have stayed legal all along and started paying to fix the problem a year ago.

I think a lot of us are only keeping our Teslas now because Tesla has decreased the values so much with caps that we're just waiting for them to be forced into buybacks like VW was when they were sentenced. VW buybacks happened specifically because VW couldn't afford to fix a lot of Dieselgate cars without their software patches that downgraded them. There are a lot of parallels to Dieselgate and Batterygate actually. Look at how long that took to resolve and how expensive it was to VW, and that's what we're looking at in Tesla's future.
 
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I had a similar experience with 2020.8.1.1 install.

Few attempts to install via Tesla app failed quickly. Tried to install while inside the car by pressing "Install now" and quickly exiting the car only to find out the installs had failed again.

Finally, it worked when I unplugged the charging cable and while inside the car I waited for both IC and the 17" display to completely boot up (waited about 5 minutes while sitting in the driver's seat) before hitting "Install now" and leave the car. Looks like I had to let the car completely up after a deep sleep before starting a successful install (in 5 years of ownership, this behavior was definitely new for my car).
hey thanks for the pointer! That worked.

I pushed on the break, and I waited until car is fully up. Then I set it to install now. I closed the door during countdown, and that worked.
No positive change in capacity though :)
who knows, maybe later there will be.
 
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There are a lot of parallels to Dieselgate and Batterygate actually.

Yes. I nearly added a post yesterday on exactly that.

I have a concern (already voiced) that while VW and Co. are long enough established and somewhat protected by their roots / connections / back room connections as well as being part of a long established business sector (ICE vehicle manufacturing) that helped them weather the emissions scandals, kicking a wounded, weaker Tesla into the gutter to extract a perfectly justified pound of flesh could have far reaching and very pro ICE / Oil outcomes.

I tried to understand @joltheadq 's post above but I feel like I may be missing some points. I don't think optimism is a big factor. It is about manufactures respecting and following the law. You'd think after dieselgate Tesla would tread very carefully and respectfully towards its customers effected by range and charge capping, but they appear to have shown little trust or respect towards customers. Combined with the attitude of 'Customers should be seen but not heard' what is left other than the issue becoming application of the law?

The discussion about product development, pushing the envelope, new technologies, untrodden ground etc is fine if Tesla weren't charging people for features and performance that either totally don't exist, or exists only under very tenuous argument. Even with my Raven, to claim 200kw charging and 50% faster charging is crazy when in the real world this does not exist.... and if it did and I actually used such high charge rates, odds are I would soon find out the hidden costs in terms of battery damage etc in years to come.... while trying to play 'dodge the warranty claim' to try and get what I was promised.

There are bound to be reasons for everything! There were with dieselgate. If the reasons involve illegal actions then the subsequent courses of action are largely set in place / demanded by Tesla's behaviour. What else can they expect?
 
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Good point CsR, didn't wk507 offer some kind of gateway to redirect Cellular traffic away from Tesla while still allowing app access, Navigation, streaming services? Great project for the entrepreneurial.

Great pickup Dr! Thank you for sharing that.

While skeptical because of controversy, I think the bleed resistors behavior has been modified since the 05/2019 update. My intentions in bringing this up isn't to pour salt in the wounds. Our cars are very expensive and any purposeful action to degrade this financial value is nefarious. IMO there isn't any battery charging methods that play into capping or battery degradation based on pack balance.

While not defending Tesla nor countering what they know, I think it's more complicated than that. But please believe me when I share how GM ruined my Chevy Volt with a forced software update. I enjoyed being able to leave it running on battery to air-condition while shopping, camping while plugged-in, etc.

The key to success in the EV market is solving battery longevity. Tesla went all in when other manufactures wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket. Tesla relies heavily on AI to solve this and vision (autopilot). But Tesla infamously underestimates timelines and product production. Tesla's rational is unwarranted because they take our deposits and property to vanguard the technology industry.
They had to insidiously recruit us into this experiment because we would never volunteer our expensive machines and Tesla can't tip off it's competitors. If they do solve the battery problem, it gives them a head start over the competition. No doubt every car manufacturer is chomping at the bit to rip off Tesla because solving the battery problem is extremely difficult and expensive. And think about how many CPO owners would try to make the battery fail by manipulating the matrices used to evaluate a battery.

I can't predict the future but I believe what I am about to share fits well. Tesla designed battery packs to be ad hoc, tentative performance extraction devices. The method of extracting this performance would change with wear but recognizing and rectifying would require data. The hope is that AI that can solve this without relying on battery chemistry, pack version, etc. The underlying degradation patterns across the whole of all these different battery configurations would require individual solutions for performance extraction.

All of our higher milage batteries contain both good and not so good cells. My old Honda Accord Hybrid periodically threw an IMA light. The NiMH pack needed to be drained via 60 W lightbulb and fully charged using a DIY 350V grid charger made from LED light drivers in a series. I believe Tesla did right with higher cell count packs (fifth paragraph). Maybe it allows greater data resolution in studying the data.

If this is close to the truth:
1) My feelings won't be as hurt because Tesla wouldn't be doing this just to cover there ass at our expense (like GM did to my Volt).
2) The innovation on future products would be tangible enough for me to be a fanboy again.
3) I'd have a "little" more peace over warranty replacement requirements than where we're at presently.
4) Because of the data Model S owners created, powertrain upgrade options can offered based on hardware changes that enhance software longevity.
5) Uncapping restores value to sell and upgrade.

I admit this is me being an optimist. More often than not, the opposite is true. I don't expect Tesla to make ground breaking changes in technology like Solid State batteries. Perhaps ultracapacitors could mitigate wear on the battery packs but likened to Chaserr's stance, this leans more toward a defect that can be arbitrated. More like evidence based software enhancement news around mid-May.

Please challenge/criticize anything I may have overlooked. Thank you.




More often than not, the opposite is true