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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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Except when he speaks in absolutes, "it's dendrites", "it's cooling fluid", "it's whatever the latest data point might suggest".

Yes, but we all know that and that possibility (of certain posts being made with a characteristic slant) is well documented here too. Irrespective of @Chaserr 's intentions, I'm quite happy to read his comments on the basis of 'trying the boots on to see if they fit'.

[Edit: I should add that I am not condoning baseless ideas being posted. Anything posted should ideally have some evidence / citation available or be worded as 'I wonder if....."]
 
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His posts have in fact been labeled as speculation from the outset. I think we have all agreed that all of us here can do nothing other than speculate since Tesla and those claiming concrete knowledge on the matter refuse for their own unknown reasons to divulge what they know. He tells us what sources, basis and logic he relies upon for us to judge their credibility for ourselves.

He is completely willing to modify any of his positions based on additional facts and convincing arguments, which apparently is another thing which drives you crazy. We have an underlying conflict between a theorist personality and a rigorous engineering one. (insert engineer joke here)

For you this is your work. For the rest of us this a problem we are wildly grasping for answers to. Do you not understand that teasing us with information you will not provide is aggravating?

Even if you can give him a pass and say a bunch of stuff is speculation (I don't, since if you're speculating you need to qualify that with something to note this, since not everyone reads every post), how do you defend all of the actual misinformation? As in, things that are known and don't require speculation, yet written in false statements?

You and others keep defending his posts as if they were posted as speculation... but perhaps you don't actually read them? Here are some examples I pulled, with explanations on why they're outright misinformation. Many provably false statements that contradict reality... and this is just me going back a few pages. (@Chaserr hides his profile, so can't easily find all of his posts).


---

Voltage is in the law
voltage is federal law for the battery
This appears to be false, as I could not locate any Federal laws specifying anything about the EPA and electric vehicle battery voltages. Still waiting on a citation for this and will happily note if proven wrong.

Batteries can't measure "capacity" - but they can read voltage.
This is false. Batteries don't "measure" or "read" anything. This is a misrepresentation, likely stemming from a lack of correct knowledge.

Limiting voltage to 4.07 tells the car's BMS to stop charging at ~87%.
This is false. Percentage capacity is not determined by the charge cut voltage. This is a misrepresentation, likely stemming from a lack of knowledge.

Falsifying EPA tests is known as "Dieselgate" - Read up on the law and you will quickly understand
This... is just outrageous and amusing. There is no law that labels "Falsifying EPA tests" as "Dieselgate". There were violations by VW of EPA regulations that was dubbed Dieselgate, but this has nothing to do with Tesla or how any laws are applied.

Lowered volts at 100% was only something you would see on software capped cars, and they could unlock 4.2v for a few thousand dollars.
This is false. This is not at all how software locked packs performed capacity capping. This is misinformation represented as fact. (More detail: The BMS capped capacity, not voltage, and scaled that locked cap with measured degradation. Charge end voltage was not capped in any way, and in fact would usually change from charge to charge.)

That's possible. They did make 70% voltage reduction batterygate limitations official policy in the 2020 warranty changes.
This is false. The warranty says nothing about battery voltage.

Everything they did after 2019.16 is aimed at lowering battery temperatures
This is speculation stated as if it were fact... and provably incorrect. (More detail: Battery thermal targets have always been dynamic and based on SoC, current flow, etc. There were certainly changes to these parameters over the years, but to say that "Everything they did after 2019.16 is aimed at lowering battery temperatures" is misguided at best, and general misinformation.)

140Kw is more likely to damage fuses than the 40kW we have now
This is false. The cell level fuses have a rating of just under 25A, which isn't anywhere close during supercharging even at 250kW. This is a misrepresentation, likely stemming from a lack of correct knowledge.
(More detail: This fuse rating gives a range of ~420kW to ~600kW, factoring in an 80% NEC-style fuse buffer, across the whole voltage range of an 85 pack. That comes out to ~1800A pack/module draw to pop a fuse, or about an 8C discharge from any cell. 140kW, even on a pack at 0% is going to be under 500A, or under 7A per cell... no where near the fuse rating. If 140kW were an issue for cell fuses, then you'd also have problems any time you used more than 140kW while driving, or over about 190HP... which obviously does not happen.)

Tesla's fire risk is correlated strongly with age
Citation needed. This appears to be more speculation written as fact without any qualifiers. While we have insufficient data to prove/disprove this, the limited data we have suggests this is false. Citation needed.

Tesla's admission of guilt
Citation needed. If Tesla admitted guilt on this issue, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

Tesla thought it was coolant
Last one for now... Speculation stated as fact (and @Chaserr even finally admitted this some 10 pages later after continuous requests for a citation).

Oh, and the mods actually added a note to that particular post due to this.

---


This is a problem all around with this person. There's no way to defend this as anything except intentionally spreading misinformation. And I only went back through a minuscule percentage of posts.
 
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Frankly, early Tesla owners are easy. Just claim they are working on a fabulous battery replacement program for all older Teslas and we'd have rolled over like puppy dogs and accepted whatever Elon-time they dangled in front of us. Who knows, it still might happen around Battery Day, but we didn't to have this rancor.
I've said it all along: I will buy my portion of this recall out of their expenses if they give me that opportunity. I'm easy.
 
Also - thanks but you don't need to defend me from whoever it is arguing with you that you implied is defaming me. There are a few people here that are working quite hard to silence discussion but there's a few on every forum. Don't help them use personal attacks against me as a vehicle for their derailing attempts, that is what they want. Ignore them, and maybe they will be forced to stop arguing and start contributing.
 
There are a few people here that are working quite hard to silence discussion

Can only assume this is targeted at me. haha

I'm obviously not trying to "silence discussion." I only want the discussion be based in reality. Speculation stated as speculation. Other statements actually be accurate. If there is a source for some information stated, it should be able to be noted or otherwise noted that it's speculation or a guess or whatever so that people don't read something unqualified and believe it's true when in fact it's misinformation. If the source is your own knowledge, own that... and when you turn out to be incorrect, own that as well... don't just keep hammering at and posting nonsense.

Unfortunately, @Chaserr, while I've no clue what your motives are on this, you do this regularly. You post speculation as if it were fact, and other outright inaccurate statements and misinformation. This is a problem. No one's trying to "silence discussion." Let the discussion continue, but it has to be based in reality. You can't just make things up and post them as if they were facts. That's all. But that's pretty much all you do here.


Bunch of recent examples.
 
Even if you can give him a pass and say a bunch of stuff is speculation (I don't, since if you're speculating you need to qualify that with something to note this, since not everyone reads every post), how do you defend all of the actual misinformation? As in, things that are known and don't require speculation, yet written in false statements?

You and others keep defending his posts as if they were posted as speculation... but perhaps you don't actually read them? Here are some examples I pulled, with explanations on why they're outright misinformation. Many provably false statements that contradict reality... and this is just me going back a few pages. (@Chaserr hides his profile, so can't easily find all of his posts).


---



This appears to be false, as I could not locate any Federal laws specifying anything about the EPA and electric vehicle battery voltages. Still waiting on a citation for this and will happily note if proven wrong.


This is false. Batteries don't "measure" or "read" anything. This is a misrepresentation, likely stemming from a lack of correct knowledge.


This is false. Percentage capacity is not determined by the charge cut voltage. This is a misrepresentation, likely stemming from a lack of knowledge.


This... is just outrageous and amusing. There is no law that labels "Falsifying EPA tests" as "Dieselgate". There were violations by VW of EPA regulations that was dubbed Dieselgate, but this has nothing to do with Tesla or how any laws are applied.


This is false. This is not at all how software locked packs performed capacity capping. This is misinformation represented as fact. (More detail: The BMS capped capacity, not voltage, and scaled that locked cap with measured degradation. Charge end voltage was not capped in any way, and in fact would usually change from charge to charge.)


This is false. The warranty says nothing about battery voltage.


This is speculation stated as if it were fact... and provably incorrect. (More detail: Battery thermal targets have always been dynamic and based on SoC, current flow, etc. There were certainly changes to these parameters over the years, but to say that "Everything they did after 2019.16 is aimed at lowering battery temperatures" is misguided at best, and general misinformation.)


This is false. The cell level fuses have a rating of just under 25A, which isn't anywhere close during supercharging even at 250kW. This is a misrepresentation, likely stemming from a lack of correct knowledge.
(More detail: This fuse rating gives a range of ~420kW to ~600kW, factoring in an 80% NEC-style fuse buffer, across the whole voltage range of an 85 pack. That comes out to ~1800A pack/module draw to pop a fuse, or about an 8C discharge from any cell. 140kW, even on a pack at 0% is going to be under 500A, or under 7A per cell... no where near the fuse rating. If 140kW were an issue for cell fuses, then you'd also have problems any time you used more than 140kW while driving, or over about 190HP... which obviously does not happen.)


Citation needed. This appears to be more speculation written as fact without any qualifiers. While we have insufficient data to prove/disprove this, the limited data we have suggests this is false. Citation needed.


Citation needed. If Tesla admitted guilt on this issue, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.


Last one for now... Speculation stated as fact (and @Chaserr even finally admitted this some 10 pages later after continuous requests for a citation).

Oh, and the mods actually added a note to that particular post due to this.

---


This is a problem all around with this person. There's no way to defend this as anything except intentionally spreading misinformation. And I only went back through a minuscule percentage of posts.
You really just don't get it. Too bad.

These have all been thoroughly established as speculative hypotheses within a (very long) ongoing discussion. Each statement and sentence does not require a qualifier as such. Take note that not every sentence of yours does either.

You are not only welcome to dispute each and every point but strongly encouraged to so, but without the nasty personal accusations.
 
You really just don't get it. Too bad.

These have all been thoroughly established as speculative hypotheses within a (very long) ongoing discussion. Each statement and sentence does not require a qualifier as such. Take note that not every sentence of yours does either.

You are not only welcome to dispute each and every point but strongly encouraged to so, but without the nasty personal accusations.

What? How do you dismiss these factually false statements as "speculative hypotheses"? Like, they're not even speculation... they're things that are obviously wrong on a factual and technical level. :rolleyes:

I would _love_ to see this thread get back on track, but that's basically impossible with people posting so much nonsense.
 
I would _love_ to see this thread get back on track,

Yes please!

Any suggestions where to look for some more worthwhile / fertile ground to discuss / investigate? Are there any of the recent posts that strike you as 'interesting' / relevent?

Not new, but the apparent 'obsession' with keeping certain packs as cool as possible under certain charge / temperature conditions is not just chance. So what else can we link to that?

Early this year I did a long trip through France. The weather was not hot, and I noticed that pretty well all the MS & MX's being supercharged on the Autoroutes had the cooling system fans running flat out, compared with my MS R LR that charged in near silence from 20 to 80+ percent.

Is it all a response to normal degradation? Forget for a moment to issue of OTA updates materially changing a car's performance. Just purely from a technical view point, what are the most likely candidates / explanations as to why my pack charged with apparently little cooling while many others apparently justified so much?
 
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These have all been thoroughly established as speculative hypotheses within a (very long) ongoing discussion. Each statement and sentence does not require a qualifier as such.

That doesn't work, as someone new to the thread would not have any background to know that they have to treat everything Chaserr says as speculation even though it is stated as being fact.
 
Yes please!

Any suggestions where to look for some more worthwhile / fertile ground to discuss / investigate? Are there any of the recent posts that strike you as 'interesting' / relevent?

There's a handful of posts that seem relevant over the past 30 pages or so, but there's far... far too much noise here to have any worthwhile discussion.

People post interesting speculative info, but then someone else comes back and posts about how Tesla is involved in Dieselgate by hiding voltages from the EPA because they filled the batteries with coolant and ran them until the NHTSA passed a Federal law about how VW set their diesel engine battery capacities that Tesla copied in their new warranty lower than 4.07V and at the same time knew about the issue while investigating a fire that they knew the cause of and admitted to and wrote about and wrote software to measure the size of dendrites produced by the gasoline that secretly powers Teslas and the coolant that bursts into flames after leaking but replenishes itself over multiple years with hydroxychloroquine. /s /s /s /s /s /s (Yes, this is how ridiculous reading some of these posts actually feels.)

It is really easy to see posts for people that hide their profile, just click the post count in the information bar on the left of any of their posts.

I actually never noticed this. haha. thanks
 
What? How do you dismiss these factually false statements as "speculative hypotheses"? Like, they're not even speculation... they're things that are obviously wrong on a factual and technical level. :rolleyes:

I would _love_ to see this thread get back on track, but that's basically impossible with people posting so much nonsense.
Because they have been referenced as such hundreds of times in these literally thousand of posts. It has even been told to you specifically and directly.

I haven't seen anyone here sidetracking the discussion by making any personal accusations yet against you or your integrity, only aggravation at your admitted withholding of information. You are at least as helpful as any here when you are able knock down hypotheses with facts and expertise. You should stick to that. You speak of obvious but you miss that many of the wildest speculations are made to provoke just that expert factual response to add to the overall knowledge.
 
Because they have been referenced as such hundreds of times in these literally thousand of posts. It has even been told to you specifically and directly.

I haven't seen anyone here sidetracking the discussion by making any personal accusations yet against you or your integrity, only aggravation at your admitted withholding of information. You are at least as helpful as any here when you are able knock down hypotheses with facts and expertise. You should stick to that. You speak of obvious but you miss that many of the wildest speculations are made to provoke just that expert factual response to add to the overall knowledge.

Wait wait... now the excuse for the misinformation is that people are posting misinformation in order to provoke others into correcting that information? lol

Like, for real... if you want to know something technical about how something works that you don't understand.... you don't make up a bunch of nonsense, post that as if it were true with zero qualifiers, and expect someone with knowledge to correct it for you (All while your misinformation is read and accepted by others who don't know any better). Instead, you do what normal people do: ask.

Again, speculation posted as fact is inexcusable. There's no references to excuse any of the things I've quoted in my other post. These things are either blatant lies, or otherwise require some citation. It isn't much to ask that a) people don't lie, and b) people cite sources for things they can't possibly have first hand control of (like, you know, claiming there's a preposterous Federal law about something... maybe post a link to the law if it actually exists?)
 
Yes please!

Any suggestions where to look for some more worthwhile / fertile ground to discuss / investigate? Are there any of the recent posts that strike you as 'interesting' / relevent?

Not new, but the apparent 'obsession' with keeping certain packs as cool as possible under certain charge / temperature conditions is not just chance. So what else can we link to that?

Early this year I did a long trip through France. The weather was not hot, and I noticed that pretty well all the MS & MX's being supercharged on the Autoroutes had the cooling system fans running flat out, compared with my MS R LR that charged in near silence from 20 to 80+ percent.

Is it all a response to normal degradation? Forget for a moment to issue of OTA updates materially changing a car's performance. Just purely from a technical view point, what are the most likely candidates / explanations as to why my pack charged with apparently little cooling while many others apparently justified so much?

My speculation: Your Raven has newer cells than most. Cells develop more internal resistance as they age, and this resistance creates heat which must be dissipated. (I haven't torn down any packs and measured cell resistance.)
 
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I have lost track of how I would know for sure what wty Tesla thinks my car has. As far as I am concerned, they changed the unlimited miles from Jan 2020. Does the actual applicable terms for each car stay in your online account docs?
heheh, nop. They change that site and they remove and repost information however they feel. Eg. in my account it specifically stated, to the best of me memory but the overall message is the same: you will have unlimited super charging for the life of the car, and if you sell you your car, the new owner will also have free unlimited supercharging.
That's nowhere to be found now. I know i took a screenshot of that, but am still looking for it. If you look for warranty documents in your account, you will get the current warranty. As far as I know, the only way to get the warranty document that your car came with is to request it from them. So they make it very hard for you to understand what your rights are, and what their contractual obligations are. Way to improve trust.
 
Early this year I did a long trip through France. The weather was not hot, and I noticed that pretty well all the MS & MX's being supercharged on the Autoroutes had the cooling system fans running flat out, compared with my MS R LR that charged in near silence from 20 to 80+ percent.

Is it all a response to normal degradation? Forget for a moment to issue of OTA updates materially changing a car's performance. Just purely from a technical view point, what are the most likely candidates / explanations as to why my pack charged with apparently little cooling while many others apparently justified so much?

Missed this edit.

There's a ton of factors in determining how much thermal control is needed.

Keep in mind that, up until recently, packs were kept at ambient temperature in hotter weather, unless a high SoC demanded otherwise. But supercharging works best are warmer temperatures (in short, due to lower internal resistance as temp increases, but there are other factors). So Tesla now lets the pack naturally warm from use, and occasionally runs active heating, to prep a pack for faster supercharging when you set your destination to a supercharging. (I used to do this before this feature by enabling "Max Battery Power" when nearing a supercharger.)

My guess is that your car didn't reach peak temp yet when you plugged in initially, so the thermal control system allowed it to gradually increase the pack temp naturally while charging, and eventually the taper in current meant less heating in general to deal with anyway, and thus less cooling needed. Also, the thermal regulation doesn't get as aggressive until well above 80%, so I'd also guess that the other vehicles were charging to higher SoC, as well as arriving with warmer packs than you.

Impossible to tell for sure without actual data, though.
 
Also - thanks but you don't need to defend me from whoever it is arguing with you that you implied is defaming me. There are a few people here that are working quite hard to silence discussion but there's a few on every forum. Don't help them use personal attacks against me as a vehicle for their derailing attempts, that is what they want. Ignore them, and maybe they will be forced to stop arguing and start contributing.
Perhaps they would all switch to devoted followers if you added a speculation disclaimer to your Tag Line :D
 
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Can someone please PM me when all the arguing and poo flinging is done? Getting tired of cleaning all the crap off my screen :D
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