Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Chaserr]

Regen in cold helps build up lithium plating. it's still high C charging to full voltage and Tesla wasn't managing it's charge thermals safely, which is a well documented way to produce battery fires. They might be able to bring back Regen later but they're still worried about cars that were damaged by the bms' old settings, and since they aren't replacing the damaged batteries their abundance of caution grows in scope every so often.

These fires weren't about 4.2v, that's just the fastest way they could hide the safety problem. They were causing lithium plating to build and short circuit with multiple BMS settings interacting in ways they didn't think about the effects of constant use for years.

 

[fbitz777]

Regen in cold helps build up lithium plating. it's still high C charging to full voltage and Tesla wasn't managing it's charge thermals safely, which is a well documented way to produce battery fires. They might be able to bring back Regen later but they're still worried about cars that were damaged by the bms' old settings, and since they aren't replacing the damaged batteries their abundance of caution grows in scope every so often.

These fires weren't about 4.2v, that's just the fastest way they could hide the safety problem. They were causing lithium plating to build and short circuit with multiple BMS settings interacting in ways they didn't think about the effects of constant use for years.

Thanks for your explanation about Regen in cold...Am I then to assume that my car drove with decent Regen for the first 2 years and hence got "damaged" by earlier BMS.

Unrelated: Tesla upgraded the newer cars to One Pedal Driving a while back; I guess that does not apply to us with older S/X?. Plus we don't have a permanent magnet motor. I know my Bolt can stop down to zero even going downhill.

 

[Chaserr]

Tesla is still concealing the depth of the damage from the world, but yes. They admit the fires were "charge and thermal settings" and lithium plating builds up when thermals aren't controlled carefully and fast charging us done willy molly. Regen was the most often used form of fast charging, and it's nerf followed batterygate.

The damage isn't necessarily permanent on all batteries. Proper firmware programming can manage lithium plating - lithium will build up every time you charge but it can also be "melted" away with careful BMS management so the structures don't stay permanently until they grow so large they cause permanent short circuits (we have seen teslas hidden bms error when they detect this condition and their refusal to repair it means they don't want to fix known short circuiting batteries).

This really wouldn't be as big of a deal if they just went public. THE decision to keep damaged batteries on public roads and not disclose the risks to the public is the only problem. I believe a few of the gates Have actually been repair attempts. Draingate especially, it's probably trying to re-balance cells that are so far out if balance they would have been charging over 4.2v in some cases. lithium buildup and imbalance would have let the bms' degrade those cells more rapidly than the rest of the battery, building lithium deposits more rapidly, eventually making one module reach 100% and 0% long before the healthy modules and in extreme cases puncturing the membrane and burning out if control. These packs can't be repaired by new bms and could be dangerous on older firmware. in my opinion draingate is trying to re-balance cells that were dangerously imbalanced, while monitoring for anomalous heat readings that would indicate a runaway thermal event. it's good science, but we aren't willing test subjects for this unethical experiment. I just want informed consent to play a role in Tesla's safety process, because I don't trust them.

 

[SmartElectric]

My Bolt gets great Regen in Cold (30F) weather so I guess it's way better than our Teslas. Sorry to be a pain but lack of Regen at even 40F is a big problem for me and has caused my front brakes to wear out at 50k.. Lack of Limited Regen for over half the year is actually very disturbing as you need to adjust from a one pedal driving to a two pedal driving many times a day! You'd think Tesla would be able to fix this with software (i.e. you release the gas pedal and it engages the brakes)

Sorry to be a pain.

My Smart Electric drive ($17K taxes inc) has full regen in cold weather and REAR wheel drive, far superior to the poorly implemented traction control of your Bolt that spins tires in warm weather let alone winter. Therefore Smart > Bolt > Tesla Model S right?! LOL !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chaserr]

SMART batteries are capped to avoid the problems both Tesla and Chevy learned through hard lessons and recalls. If that makes the whole car better to you, stay laughing at our misfortune. we expected hiccups like this as early adopters, and believed Tesla's claims of "World's best warranty." It didn't seem hilarious to us years ago that Tesla would stand behind those words.

 

[fbitz777]

SMART batteries are capped to avoid the problems both Tesla and Chevy learned through hard lessons and recalls. If that makes the whole car better to you, stay laughing at our misfortune. we expected hiccups like this as early adopters, and believed Tesla's claims of "World's best warranty." It didn't seem hilarious to us years ago that Tesla would stand behind those words.

Actually Chevy only recalled a few hundred batteries back 4 years ago.. I have a '17 and a '19 and the new "recall" has to do with battery pack assembly in Korea not the BMS. As a matter of fact my '17 has the recall but not my '19 (assembled in US).. right now they are handling it by capping affected batteries to 90%

At least GM has no problem explaining to customers what is going on! And I am sure that GM will replace batteries in quick order if they can't fix them via new BMS

 

[Chaserr]

Every Chevy bolt battery made before 2020 was recalled just a few weeks ago. Their emergency temporary "fix" to stop the fires was a software capped 90% charge limit in the BMS just like Tesla. They are probably going to replace every battery affected.

Take both of your Bolts to the dealership for an official batterygate temporary safety measure while they prepare your replacements.

 

[blitzpa]

I have 2 cars currently on 2020.48.12.1, a 3/18 build X P100DL and a 5/15 build S P85D. The X is still able to charge up to 178kW on a V3 while the S has never charged above 68kW. I got the S used less than 2 months ago but it took a longer road trip and multiple tests to realize it was chargegated. I haven't confirmed with ScanMyTesla or anything but this is a bummer since I love everything about the S aside from that. At least I got it cheap. Hoping there is a fix or action against Tesla to remedy this otherwise it's too slow at SuC to take on long trips.

 

[SmartElectric]

right now they are handling it by capping affected batteries to 90%
At least GM has no problem explaining to customers what is going on!

General Motors will settle with 124 families over deaths resulting from faulty ignition switches that were installed in the 2.6 million small cars recalled last year

^ first google search for term "GM kills people ignition".
I bet every one of those 124 families trusts GM to explain what's going on.

And I am sure that GM will replace batteries in quick order if they can't fix them via new BMS

Sure, you know, the GM that cannot update their car over the air, so needs to pull people in for a multi-hour recall to reflash firmware and some owners like Nikki got screwed over because GM messed up the fix

And then the same GM that will solve the problem by replacing battery packs in tens of thousands of cars, I hope you've saved this post to laugh at me when GM does that ... I will when they don't. Let's see who laughs first.

 

[fbitz777]

Every Chevy bolt battery made before 2020 was recalled just a few weeks ago. Their emergency temporary "fix" to stop the fires was a software capped 90% charge limit in the BMS just like Tesla. They are probably going to replace every battery affected.

Take both of your Bolts to the dealership for an official batterygate temporary safety measure while they prepare your replacements.

Actually my '17 has the recall and I sold it already...my '19 does NOT have it as battery was assembled in the USA (one of the few) And yes all the dealer does in affected batteries is to limit to 90 percent charge.
The defect in Bolt is assembly related not BMS related.

At least they are upfront about it! And they did not fight with NHTSA. 68000 batteries involved so not a small number of cars.

.

 

[fbitz777]

^
Sure, you know, the GM that cannot update their car over the air, so needs to pull people in for a multi-hour recall to reflash firmware and some owners like Nikki got screwed over because GM messed up the fix

And then the same GM that will solve the problem by replacing battery packs in tens of thousands of cars, I hope you've saved this post to laugh at me when GM does that ... I will when they don't. Let's see who laughs first.

Bolt has over the air updates...I had a few on my '17 before I sold it. I seriously doubt they'll replace 68k batteries but they'll compensate affected owners. In any event my '19 is one of the few not affected.

 

[MP3Mike]

In any event my '19 is one of the few not affected.

Yet.

 

[SmartElectric]

the S has never charged above 68kW. I got the S used less than 2 months ago but it took a longer road trip and multiple tests to realize it was chargegated. ... it's too slow at SuC to take on long trips.

"too slow", hmm, perspective :

The supercharger difference between ours cars is likely just 5 minutes when charging 20-80% ... and my car is not charge gated.
(math below)


We've done 60000 km of road trips in our 2013 Model S that has a charge curve of kW = 110-SOC%.
ie. I get 68kW around 40% SOC, which is a typical amount to arrive with on a road trip leg

Sometimes we push to 20% or lower on arrival, but with superchargers so close to each other, not necessary if you don't mind stopping every two hours like we do (generally we have 4 people in the car, someone always has to pee within that time period).

If you are charging at 20% and only get 68, that's 20kW lower than my car and that evens our to identical charge rates at 40%.


Math =
74 kWh of total capacity in "85 battery"

assume our cars charge the same kW from 40% to 100%.

assume my car charges 20kW peak more at 20% and same kW at 40%, difference is the area under the triangle means my car does roughly 10kW better on average from 20% to 40%.

arrive with 20% charge to 40% , total of 15 kWh of energy in 74 kWh pack

my car averages 70 kW of power, filling 15 kWh in 13 minutes
your car averages 50 kW of power, filling 15 kWh in 18 minutes

 

[Smiles83]

You are assuming to much the max we get on any supercharger in ideal conditions is 68 kW and slowly goes down from there.

At 27% we start to lose charge speed gradually at 40% were now getting 59kW, at 49% were at 51kW, at 60% were charging at 42kW. 13%-94% takes 1hr 40 mins

Coupled with #batterygate and #draingate no longer can i do road trips in my car. I guess Tesla has saved alot from my lifetime supercharging that I can't use

"too slow", hmm, perspective :

The supercharger difference between ours cars is likely just 5 minutes when charging 20-80% ... and my car is not charge gated.
(math below)


We've done 60000 km of road trips in our 2013 Model S that has a charge curve of kW = 110-SOC%.
ie. I get 68kW around 40% SOC, which is a typical amount to arrive with on a road trip leg

Sometimes we push to 20% or lower on arrival, but with superchargers so close to each other, not necessary if you don't mind stopping every two hours like we do (generally we have 4 people in the car, someone always has to pee within that time period).

If you are charging at 20% and only get 68, that's 20kW lower than my car and that evens our to identical charge rates at 40%.


Math =
74 kWh of total capacity in "85 battery"

assume our cars charge the same kW from 40% to 100%.

assume my car charges 20kW peak more at 20% and same kW at 40%, difference is the area under the triangle means my car does roughly 10kW better on average from 20% to 40%.

arrive with 20% charge to 40% , total of 15 kWh of energy in 74 kWh pack

my car averages 70 kW of power, filling 15 kWh in 13 minutes
your car averages 50 kW of power, filling 15 kWh in 18 minutes

 

[Florian500]

2019.12.1.1 vs 2020.36.11

 

[Florian500]

effect of low temperatures and cold pack

2020.48.12.1 (my car) was preconditioned with supercharger as navigation destination and the regen limit indicator was completely gone, battery heater symbol was no longer visible in the app -> I assume battery preconditioning was finished

2020.36.11 (my car) was well heated up driving at German autobahn speed of 120km/h or more

 

[Florian500]

both graphs show my car

effect of one hour city driving with supercharger as navigation destination (light blue) vs. almost no preconditioning (just the 5km to the supercharger)

 

[Chaserr]

I saw someone above quote Tesla's misinformation "5 minutes more" lie. This is just not true. They slowed charging and reduced the curve so a 20-80% charge now takes 45-90 minutes longer than before (depending on how badly they gated your battery).

People with non-defective hardware or who stayed on older firmware should listen to those who are affected, Tesla's lying does not change how slow charging has become.

When discussing perspective, remember that from the perspective of those affected by Tesla's software cheat devices speeds as unimaginably fast as 70kW have been impossible to achieve.

 

[Droschke]

effect of low temperatures and cold pack

2020.48.12.1 (my car) was preconditioned with supercharger as navigation destination and the regen limit indicator was completely gone, battery heater symbol was no longer visible in the app -> I assume battery preconditioning was finished

2020.36.11 (my car) was well heated up driving at German autobahn speed of 120km/h or more

both graphs show my car

effect of one hour city driving with supercharger as navigation destination (light blue) vs. almost no preconditioning (just the 5km to the supercharger)

Thanks for the charts.

1) You have provided two charts, each with four graphs. It would be helpful if you identify each colored graph on these charts.
2) I gather you are recommending setting a supercharger as the destination for winter driving even though you might not intend to visit any supercharger in order to heat up the battery? Correct?

 

[fbitz777]

Thanks for the charts.


2) I gather you are recommending setting a supercharger as the destination for winter driving even though you might not intend to visit any supercharger in order to heat up the battery? Correct?

That would be wasteful as it is only intended to be used to improve your charge rate (i.e only applicable to Supercharging)
I guess it could be used to speed up time to full Regen; for that I found out that spirited driving is quickest way to warm up battery!

Actually best way overall is to leave your car in a 60+F garage when not driving...