Great catch @Chaserr. I was wondering what does a BMS error have to do with the "Brake Management System"!!! But your referenced PDF nails it.
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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software
- Thread starter Dutchmeeuw
- Start date
Great catch @Chaserr. I was wondering what does a BMS error have to do with the "Brake Management System"!!! But your referenced PDF nails it.
The problem with my car still seems off topic for this tread. The car came back to life without doing anything. Tesla might get me in service center tomorrow. Not sure if they are going to be able to duplicate anything. I will move any further discussion to:
Alerts - "Unable to Drive -voltage supply too low" & "Vehicle may not restart" & "Power reduced"
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Can't wait until Tesla admits that the batteries were built to last for 8 years.
Tesla says its faulty touchscreens that led to a recall were only built to last 5-6 years
Tesla says its faulty touchscreens that led to a recall were only built to last 5-6 years
We could be close. Even Tesla's most fervent are using longevity as their only excuse. It appears the batteries, like MCU, were designed to fail . I don't think either was intentional, but cost cutting is probably also involved in batterygate.
MCU is showing us exactly how Tesla treats recalls that it knows have 100% failure rates. Deny, Deny, Deny, secretly patch in software, deny, deny, deny, lawsuits, investigations, new cheaper hardware designs appear, deny, deny, bombshell government announcement, then tesla "does the right thing" under extreme duress. 100% failure ra
Now that we know their official safety recall process we can try and figure out where we are in this particular example.
"Tesla's legal chief, Al Prescott, pushed back against the regulator's definition of a "defect," arguing that the eMMC memory devices in question were only built to last five to six years. He said that lifespan is standard for infotainment systems in the industry."
Tesla's legal chief is saying some dangerous things. He seems miffed that the NHTSA expects cars to remain safe for only half of the average age of cars on the road. Most cars on the road are almost 12 years old! So now that we know someone that out of touch with the NHTSA's safety laws (and the car industry in general) is in charge of Tesla's legal team, I suddenly understand why Tesla chose to make this as painful for themselves as possible.
MCU is showing us exactly how Tesla treats recalls that it knows have 100% failure rates. Deny, Deny, Deny, secretly patch in software, deny, deny, deny, lawsuits, investigations, new cheaper hardware designs appear, deny, deny, bombshell government announcement, then tesla "does the right thing" under extreme duress. 100% failure ra
Now that we know their official safety recall process we can try and figure out where we are in this particular example.
"Tesla's legal chief, Al Prescott, pushed back against the regulator's definition of a "defect," arguing that the eMMC memory devices in question were only built to last five to six years. He said that lifespan is standard for infotainment systems in the industry."
Tesla's legal chief is saying some dangerous things. He seems miffed that the NHTSA expects cars to remain safe for only half of the average age of cars on the road. Most cars on the road are almost 12 years old! So now that we know someone that out of touch with the NHTSA's safety laws (and the car industry in general) is in charge of Tesla's legal team, I suddenly understand why Tesla chose to make this as painful for themselves as possible.
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This confirms the mentality, even as it would apply to a safety component:
"It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle’s entire useful life."
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2020/INRL-EA20003-82493P.pdf
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Does not compute. If it's designed then it was intentional.
Give them some benefit of doubt JP. I don't choose to believe they intentionally designed cars to be unsafe from the very beginning though I can understand why you say so. They just designed a lot of things poorly, used substandard parts to save pennies, and have a moron in legal saying dangerous things. He didn't play a part in the design obviously. He doesn't even understand the law or the car industry and that's his actual job, it's unrealistic to expect him to understand design budget decisions that caused the safety failures he's trying to excuse.
I recommend assuming incompetence to malice. We know their legal team is incompetent and it's more likely Tesla failed to make safe cars due to incompetent budgeting than some malicious intent to cause harm on purpose. The cars are unsafe as designed, but the design probably isn't intended to hurt anyone.
These assumptions explain batterygate. They are going to avoid admitting the batteries were incompetently designed for as long as possible. Even if that means people aren't safe. Thank the incompetent Tesla legal head for that poor decision tree. We know from their own admission that Tesla legal is ignorant of the safety issues at hand, lack a grasp of the auto industry and it's laws, and are miffed with the authorities trying to help them out if this mess.
This is good. Elon can fire his incompetent legal anchors and free the company from their damaging input at any time.
I recommend assuming incompetence to malice. We know their legal team is incompetent and it's more likely Tesla failed to make safe cars due to incompetent budgeting than some malicious intent to cause harm on purpose. The cars are unsafe as designed, but the design probably isn't intended to hurt anyone.
These assumptions explain batterygate. They are going to avoid admitting the batteries were incompetently designed for as long as possible. Even if that means people aren't safe. Thank the incompetent Tesla legal head for that poor decision tree. We know from their own admission that Tesla legal is ignorant of the safety issues at hand, lack a grasp of the auto industry and it's laws, and are miffed with the authorities trying to help them out if this mess.
This is good. Elon can fire his incompetent legal anchors and free the company from their damaging input at any time.
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Lots of bombastic statements there, with little to back them up. I generally agree with your sentiments Chaserr, but you are way off base with these assertions.
ALL cars are unsafe as designed. There's no way to make them totally safe. A ton or more of metal wrapped around a human body and hurtling it down the road at 70+ miles an hour has nearly unlimited potential to mangle that body beyond all recognition in an appallingly wide set of circumstances that can be triggered by equally appalling minor things. In point of fact, Teslas are one of the safest cars on the road. "...unsafe as designed"? Using the safety standards of the automobile industry, quite the opposite is true.
You need to keep in mind that no one designed a product like this before Tesla. There was a veritable cornucopia of "firsts" in these cars, and despite all the research, an accompanying cornucopia of unknowns (maybe the biggest being that the number and magnitude of the unknowns were unknown).
Bad design decisions certainly were made, sure, like the eMMC chip usage in the early cars. And there were many more. But that happens with nearly everything. Engineering decisions in every industry are more often than not driven by budget and schedule. Those decisions are often known at the time to be compromises that use a less effective design, but it's very seldom that a truly "bad" design is knowingly implemented.
Incompetently designed batteries? Absolutely not. In fact, the design of the batteries and the BMS border on genius. Even with all the unknowns they were dealing with at the time, most of the cars have survived on the road for ten of thousands, and even over a hundred thousand, miles while performing perfectly (or very nearly so). The unknowns have popped their heads up in all those years and miles, and necessitated some very undesirable system changes to control their effects. Batterygate, chargegate and so on.
The incompetence lies in how Tesla has dealt with these things. Had they been absolutely upfront with us early adopters about why they needed to cap our charge rates, impose draconian tapers to our charge rates, cap our maximum battery charges, etc., I think most of us would be much less upset. I know I would. But they didn't. They chose instead to obfuscate or otherwise downright conceal what they were doing, in the hopes that we wouldn't notice (or some other unexplainable rationale that they should have known wouldn't work). And THAT is inexcusable.
So who am I to refute your assertions? What are my credentials? I'm a design engineer with over 40 years of experience who has worked in high tech industry for most of that time. I know how designs are done. I've worked with brilliant and incompetent engineers alike. I can see incompetent designs where there are. They are not in a Tesla.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I never said so, I merely pointed out the contradicting statements you made.
5-6 years he said? If it fails in 5-6 years, I think he forgot to say that it starts to function in annoyingly and unsafe manner much before that, like several years before. So did they design it to do that too? If no, how come SC always says it works according to spec.
You just can't (always) have it both ways...
You just can't (always) have it both ways...
Don't believe Tesla's lawyer when he said that - he's incompetent and lying (though I don't know if he lies because of his incompetence or if he's just too far over his head to realize what he's said). They probably designed it to fail in a reasonable span, but the image size grew from 200 MB to over 1000. They shrunk the design-expected lifespan when they did that since failure is determined by the amount of unused memory available for them to wear out. When they added games and other things that quadrupled the size of the installed image, they reduced the space that would have provided years of wear. It doesn't help that the penny pinching design choices used the most failure prone chips they could find. Hynix offered them much longer lasting chips but Tesla chose the most failure prone intentionally. Design choices made out of incompetence but not ill intent. The MCU would still have a reasonable lifespan if the firmware was still 25% of the size it is now. The MCU would still have a reasonable lifespan if teh software wasn't bloated as much as it is now. V9 was a mistake. It kills MCUs much faster than older firmwares, it devalues cars, it slows charging by hours, it reduces capacity... Hardware issues and hardware issues intertwined to create a series of problems for Tesla.
We're seeing that in the battery now. The HVIL node settings as designed are now being secretly changed years later, and people who get errors related to it are fed lies to cover up those problems. Tesla realized there was something wrong with the default HVIL after batterygate, and now they are lying about those HVIL errors thrown by the BMS and telling owners the BMS is braking instead of the truth.
The design wasn't intentionally faulty, and we expected hiccups. Thats why we were enticed by the world's best service and warranty. We were duped, the warranty is a farce and service is lying to us.
We're seeing that in the battery now. The HVIL node settings as designed are now being secretly changed years later, and people who get errors related to it are fed lies to cover up those problems. Tesla realized there was something wrong with the default HVIL after batterygate, and now they are lying about those HVIL errors thrown by the BMS and telling owners the BMS is braking instead of the truth.
The design wasn't intentionally faulty, and we expected hiccups. Thats why we were enticed by the world's best service and warranty. We were duped, the warranty is a farce and service is lying to us.
BigNick
Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
I don't know all the HVIL details (it sounds interesting, but also sounds like a huge rabbit hole to explore all the information.)
But the first point about low free eMMC space (and non-automotive-grade chips) causing premature wear is dead-on. It's also why I use "tune2fs" to reserve 20% of disk space on all my SSDs, some of which have only 350 write cycles of lifetime.
SmartElectric
Active Member
DOH! What will I do now, my 8 year old Model S still has 95% original capacity and supercharges identically to new, and our MCU1 is still running. You mean it will stop working now?! LOL . Please. Save the drama and FUD.
How many miles on your 8 year old Model S?
Always trying to see on the cars that have great capacity what miles they have.
over 130k with just a shade under 6% for a 2017. Very satisfied.
SmartElectric
Active Member
Just checked the app, took literally 2 seconds for the car to wake up and respond, it's been sitting idle for a few days and immediately I could check status and turn on heating remotely. Amazing tech.
150,000 km through 8 cold Canadian winters.
60000 km of which were supercharged on road trips.
How did a Californian car company make an EV as good as our S for the winter.
cpa
Active Member
It is plausible that your car was made more carefully than many of ours. It is also entirely plausible that extremely hot temperatures have more deleterious effects on our cars than cold Canadian winters. Four to five months per year we experience daytime highs at 95-112 with overnight lows 69-80. Other locations here in these United States are worse.
If there is one thing we have learned about Tesla the company is that they are consistently inconsistent with manufacturing, service, and customer relations. You may have been one of the more fortunate souls!
He spends a great deal of time gloating about his unicorn. If Tesla had built more cars like his threads like this wouldn't exist.
Empathy is the ability to understand the feelings and perspectives of others even when you don't share the same experiences. Is there a word for the opposite of empathy?
Empathy is the ability to understand the feelings and perspectives of others even when you don't share the same experiences. Is there a word for the opposite of empathy?
Pretty tasteless posting this in a forum where people are having true issues with their car.
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