Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
It appears those who like to cause problems are protected while those who are fact seekers and problem solvers are marginalized.
It's quite the opposite, actually. The forum mods and probably the owner rightly understand that "people who disagree with you" != trolls. Others in this thread (well, maybe the forum in general?) just haphazardly slap troll labels whenever they're unhappy that someone disagrees with you or questions the provenance of information. [disclaimer - I'm not defending anyone, nor do I think of this line as attacking me personally (I don't care if it is), but I do find it to be plain wrong.]

Well, I still think the lawsuit has merit. You can't sell something to someone, take it away without disclosure, then fix it years later. They may have very well only fixed it due to all of the publicity... There was and still is damage to customers.

However, I'm skeptical it's all truly fixed. Supercharging speeds and time left is still way off.... This change/slowdown happened to lots of people. At least for myself -- I've updated to all the latest software versions and drove over 8k miles. I've not seen this supercharging issue/fake time left issue resolved.
The lawsuit definitely has merit. Unfortunately it's often the only way to force large corps to do the right thing. If Tesla had assured the complainants that the they were working to restore the range asap, it may never have been filed. Instead they were met with denial, which after a certain number of denials and time passing, the complainants had to assume Tesla's stance was that it was not going to fix the problem. The fix was issued after the lawsuit was filed. Maybe just a coincidence....

Also, chargegate, draingate, etc. are all still problems that we're not getting transparency on, unfortunately.
 
It's quite the opposite, actually. The forum mods and probably the owner rightly understand that "people who disagree with you" != trolls. Others in this thread (well, maybe the forum in general?) just haphazardly slap troll labels whenever they're unhappy that someone disagrees with you or questions the provenance of information. [disclaimer - I'm not defending anyone, nor do I think of this line as attacking me personally (I don't care if it is), but I do find it to be plain wrong.]


The lawsuit definitely has merit. Unfortunately it's often the only way to force large corps to do the right thing. If Tesla had assured the complainants that the they were working to restore the range asap, it may never have been filed. Instead they were met with denial, which after a certain number of denials and time passing, the complainants had to assume Tesla's stance was that it was not going to fix the problem. The fix was issued after the lawsuit was filed. Maybe just a coincidence....

Also, chargegate, draingate, etc. are all still problems that we're not getting transparency on, unfortunately.

100% agree with your excellent post.

However, even though I know what you intend to mean by the word "fix", the affected owners should note that the restoration mechanism is a clever software "workaround" for a hardware defect (allegedly, the bad BMB broads). We still have defective hardware component(s) in our capped packs and it seems Tesla has chosen to only deploy a software workaround. By definition a "workaround" is a temporary solution and not a "fix". The real fix is the hardware (the pack) replacement.

A capped owner is not going to have to wait for months/years and to drive for thousands of miles to presumably get the car's range somewhat restored if the hardware fix is provided.
 
Last edited:
I detailed about a month ago (page 702) how my car has recovered ily ts lost range by a process of incrementally increasing cell voltage back up to 4.198V maximum. This has been maintained over the past month, so I am now seeing a predicted range (at 100%) of 257 miles, which had previously dropped to 238 miles at the lowest point (max cell voltage 4.098V at that time). The recovery process was pretty much exactly as described by @wk057 in his report when applied to Condition Z.
I do have another observation relating to the mileage necessary for the condition to be corrected. Due to Covid-19 my car has covered only 3.5k miles since March 2020 and I suspect that it lost more range from vampire drain than actual mileage. I have been supercharging weekly in conjunction with the grocery run, with just the very occasional long trip when it has been allowed. I have kept the software up to date at all times. So it may not be entirely mileage dependent, or at least not in my case. As we all know Tesla moves in mysterious ways, so it might also be some kind of lottery based on some other unknown factors.
Many thanks to wk057 for apparently making sense of it all!
 
I detailed about a month ago (page 702) how my car has recovered ily ts lost range by a process of incrementally increasing cell voltage back up to 4.198V maximum. This has been maintained over the past month, so I am now seeing a predicted range (at 100%) of 257 miles, which had previously dropped to 238 miles at the lowest point (max cell voltage 4.098V at that time). The recovery process was pretty much exactly as described by @wk057 in his report when applied to Condition Z.
I do have another observation relating to the mileage necessary for the condition to be corrected. Due to Covid-19 my car has covered only 3.5k miles since March 2020 and I suspect that it lost more range from vampire drain than actual mileage. I have been supercharging weekly in conjunction with the grocery run, with just the very occasional long trip when it has been allowed. I have kept the software up to date at all times. So it may not be entirely mileage dependent, or at least not in my case. As we all know Tesla moves in mysterious ways, so it might also be some kind of lottery based on some other unknown factors.
Many thanks to wk057 for apparently making sense of it all!

Getting your range back after driving 3500 miles must be a happy event for you.

But how do you feel that you are still sitting on a defective pack going forward? Don't you agree that those bad BMB's in your pack can potentially corrode further and fail at more solder points?
 
Getting your range back after driving 3500 miles must be a happy event for you.

But how do you feel that you are still sitting on a defective pack going forward? Don't you agree that those bad BMB's in your pack can potentially corrode further and fail at more solder points?

So your position on this matter is that despite the condition being acceptably mitigated such that full functionality can be restored, your pack is still "defective"?
 
However, even though I know what you intend to mean by the word "fix", the affected owners should note that the restoration mechanism is a clever software "workaround" for a hardware defect (allegedly, the bad BMB broads). We still have defective hardware component(s) in our capped packs and it seems Tesla has chosen to only deploy a software workaround. By definition a "workaround" is a temporary solution and not a "fix". The real fix is the hardware (the pack) replacement.

I think "workarounds" are common in the automobile world. Look at Hyundai; they have an ABS module that would leak/corrode and catch fire at any time even when parked. Their solution, apparently accepted by NHTSA, was to install a relay so that it only had power when the car was running. So now they will only catch fire while running, not while parked...

And what if the BMS software originally came with this detection and remediation built-in? Would it still just be a "workaround"?
 
Considering the even for a layman quite clear explanation by @wk057 : is it safe to assume that the remanufactured packs tesla places under guarantee are remanufactured by swapping the defective bms’es only, thus no changes to the modules (which I read are difficult to construct)?

I think it would depend on what failed in the pack. If it was only the BMB board that failed they would replace that board, and likely make any other changes that they have as a standard for remanufacturing a pack. (Like replacing contactors if they are the old versions, breathers, etc.) In some cases it is cells in a module that have failed, and module replacement is likely what they would do. But really only Tesla knows what they include in their remanufacturing process.
 
Getting your range back after driving 3500 miles must be a happy event for you.

But how do you feel that you are still sitting on a defective pack going forward? Don't you agree that those bad BMB's in your pack can potentially corrode further and fail at more solder points?
Well the car is now performing in line with my expectations, so I am not unhappy. I bought it in the knowledge that the technology is very new and that there may be some problems along the way. But I trust that should my battery pack fail completely within the 8 year warranty period that Tesla would honour it's obligations and replace it. Compared to other quality vehicles I have owned over the years my Model S has been the most reliable of all, but nothing is perfect..
 
What does it cost to replace the defective daughter boards? I'll write that check today. They sold them for the MCU recall, and it's all I have asked for. I'll put my money where my words have always been. Tesla doesn't need to foot the bill for me they just need to make repairs possible.

If your battery fails in (just under) 10 years you should still expect warranty replacement. Tesla extended the battery warranty involuntarily by crippling batteries "for longevity"
 
I don't think replacing BMB boards would be that expensive for Tesla (as compared to battery modules/packs). They obviously know how many defective ones each car has. After all for condition 'X' (a single Mosfet) they obviously fixed them. Also if you look at the Emmc recall they are now planning to recall all of them albeit reluctantly rather then when they fail. I am sure Tesla could have worked around with software to reduce the failures on Emmc.
 
Last edited:
After all for condition 'X' (a single Mosfet) they obviously fixed them.

IMHO and AFAIK after reading wk057 statements, there actually were no "real" battery packs suffering from Condition X. Instead there were battery packs which were exchanged because Condition Z was interpreted by BMS versions as Condition X. After changing the battery pack they analyzed such a pack but did not find X... instead they found Z and it took some while to figure out a way to change the BMS being able to distinguish X from Z and later on mitigate the effect of Z to the range.

Either way, I am still way more interested to get the charging speeds dialed back up again. I calculated that the current limitation would add up to 14 days of my lifetime staying longer at SuCs over the next 250000km according to my work related long distance travels from the past.

BR! Oaito.
 
So your position on this matter is that despite the condition being acceptably mitigated such that full functionality can be restored, your pack is still "defective"?

If anyone is needing an example of how heavily this thread is being moderated and the narrative tightly controlled, this post was reported and subsequently edited by moderation staff because I said “lol” at the end of it and asked if @Droschke still expected a replacement pack.

:rolleyes:

9B9501EF-87D6-4649-AF86-6943381C2301.jpeg
 
Don't you agree that those bad BMB's in your pack can potentially corrode further and fail at more solder points?
Unlikely. The failures occur at a specific cell group in a module, which can be worked around. They are not randomly distributed amongst all cell groups (including ones where the workaround won't work). I can't really be more specific without violating wk057's copyright, but read his description and you'll understand what I mean.
 
What does it cost to replace the defective daughter boards? I'll write that check today. They sold them for the MCU recall, and it's all I have asked for. I'll put my money where my words have always been. Tesla doesn't need to foot the bill for me they just need to make repairs possible.

I'm sure that Gruber would be more than willing to take your money to replace the BMB board(s). Just don't expect it to be inexpensive.
 
  • Funny
  • Like
Reactions: wk057 and fbitz777
Wrong. Wishful thinking, but nothing they did extended the warranty, implicitly or explicitly.
What he meant was that Tesla babied the batteries for close to 2 years now; hence the warranty should be extended by 2 years. They did this with Emmc trying to be cute then voluntarily extended our warranty and ended up with a forced recall.
 
Read more of the lawsuit, it has more than just the battery and supercharging issue in it.

Yes it does. There are a number of alleged statutory violations of consumer protection laws and computer tampering, to name two. Those allegations will not vanish even though Tesla's software changes restored our batteries to pre May-2019 capacities. We may not have a claim for damages in that part of the suit (I'll leave that to the lawyers), but we will participate in any court judgments concerning the statutory missteps.

Tesla has shown time and again that they negotiate in bad faith. Whether this is policy from the Board or Musk (my money is on Musk) is unknown. Tesla will need to be coerced into doing the right thing.

If you rob a bank today and are under suspicion by the cops, only to return the money the next day, you have still committed bank robbery. The judge may go easy on you at sentencing, but you are still guilty. No backsies.
 
(Something about paying for BMB replacements)

The service centers don't have the ability to do deep pack repairs like BMB replacements. Last I knew they were only allowed to do things like fuse and contactor replacements on-site, and Tesla gave up on further pursuing any deep repairs on both packs and motors because this was just too time consuming and involved too much specialization for a service center to do locally. Anything beyond the basics would require the pack be shipped for remanufacturing at a central facility, which is likely not something that will be offered as a "customer pay" option ever.

Even if this were offered (by Tesla or others), don't expect it to be cheap. I've done similar repairs on salvage vehicles, and it's a ton of work. (Also, see my notes below.)

(Something about a 10 year warranty)

While I actually agree that Tesla should extend the warranty on all affected packs for the time its taken them to fix the issue... they have not, they're likely not going to, and likely have no incentive (legal or otherwise) to do so.

I don't think replacing BMB boards would be that expensive for Tesla (as compared to battery modules/packs). They obviously know how many defective ones each car has. After all for condition 'X' (a single Mosfet) they obviously fixed them. Also if you look at the Emmc recall they are now planning to recall all of them albeit reluctantly rather then when they fail. I am sure Tesla could have worked around with software to reduce the failures on Emmc.

Proper remanufacturing of a pack to replace a BMB is very tedious and time consuming. A crew of two guys would have easily 4 hours of labor per pack just to properly replace a single BMB... and that's probably a low estimate, and doesn't include time required for sealants to cure and such.

Definitely different than the eMMC issue, where Tesla just acted way too late to do anything about mitigating in software-only. If they had listened to me (and others) on this issue ~5 years ago, they could have easily prevented the problem entirely in software. But they didn't, so they're stuck with hardware replacement based fixes.

I'm sure that Gruber would be more than willing to take your money to replace the BMB board(s). Just don't expect it to be inexpensive.

Even if they did offer this, I wouldn't suggest doing it. The BMBs are paired and calibrated with the main BMS and rest of the pack, and replacing one without proper reprogramming will cause the pack to limit power and tighten the allowed voltage range (about 30% loss of range) as a precaution.

As far as I know, no one outside of Tesla, besides myself, would have any clue where to even begin on making sure that was done properly. Given Gruber's publicized "fixes" for battery issues thus far, I can all but guarantee they would have no knowledge of this at all, let alone a way to perform such a repair. The physical work, sure. Replacing the BMB is physically doable. Fully functional end result? Highly doubtful.

---

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure a reasonable interpretation of the battery warranty fully allows Tesla to repair this particular issue in the manner they have chosen to do so. Nothing says that they have to fix a problem with physical repairs. I'd argue their fix for Condition Z is perfectly acceptable as covering their obligations under the battery warranty, and likely way more timely than any possible recall or forced physical remanufacturing would be. You probably wouldn't be able to get an appointment for such a fix for years.

"Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results" -Not Einstein