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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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You are not incorrect. As I recall the chargegate posts appeared after May-June of 2019.
definitely right on that. I bought mine in March 2019 as a 3 year old CPO and 20k miles. It charged at 100+ kW on a regular bases up to 2019.16. Even after 2019.16 I remember it not being limited, but soon after I started to limit around 80kW, and nowadays I don't get anything close to 80kW any more regardless of pre-conditioning or external temp or whatever you have it, and I charge mostly at home and work especially over the past year.
Also, going back on some same issues, even though today's temp was in 70s and inside of the car was in upper 80s from sitting in the sun, I had to set AC to 66 to get to blow any air on auto mode. HVAC working fine my ***. Why does the battery need so much cooling when outside is only 70s

The other part is that lately it just seems to be using exorbent amount of energy. I'm typically in 280-330 Wh/mi range, in the winter somewhat higher, but as of recently, I am constantly in 400 range. Same roads, same foot (as far as I know). Regen is limited at below 60F, but that's been the same whole winter, and if anything, temps are higher now. Not only that, but today was in 70s so battery got warmed up faster, and yet, it was really hard to get below 400. Any thoughts (besides something I'm doing differently) are welcome.
 
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definitely right on that. I bought mine in March 2019 as a 3 year old CPO and 20k miles. It charged at 100+ kW on a regular bases up to 2019.16. Even after 2019.16 I remember it not being limited, but soon after I started to limit around 80kW, and nowadays I don't get anything close to 80kW any more regardless of pre-conditioning or external temp or whatever you have it, and I charge mostly at home and work especially over the past year.
Also, going back on some same issues, even though today's temp was in 70s and inside of the car was in upper 80s from sitting in the sun, I had to set AC to 66 to get to blow any air on auto mode. HVAC working fine my ***. Why does the battery need so much cooling when outside is only 70s

The other part is that lately it just seems to be using exorbent amount of energy. I'm typically in 280-330 Wh/mi range, in the winter somewhat higher, but as of recently, I am constantly in 400 range. Same roads, same foot (as far as I know). Regen is limited at below 60F, but that's been the same whole winter, and if anything, temps are higher now. Not only that, but today was in 70s so battery got warmed up faster, and yet, it was really hard to get below 400. Any thoughts (besides something I'm doing differently) are welcome.

Lucky you, I cant even get past 26kW for the last 20% it goes down 5kW. So odd
 
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...the reduction in charge speed happened many months after the battery cap. As a matter of fact I had a few months where my 75D reached 110kw charging after the cap. Now I am maxed out at 80kw
From this thread do we know the first time the word chargegate is even mentioned?

Yeah, as stated before, I also experienced with 2019.16 a reduced capacity but no reduced charge rates. In the German counterpart to TMC the threads for range loss and charge rate reduction are actually separated: Charge Rate Reduction with 2019.20.1 You can find similar results from teslalogger_de when you compare the graphs per firmware.

Yet keep in mind, most of the graphs are showing charge rates in kW in relation to soc in % without accounting for degradation or f/w induced capacity reduction. Why does degradation matter? I will try to show the impact based on my own battery:

Adding the same amount of energy to a degraded pack means you need to add a bigger percentage... a brief example to show why long distance trips takes so much longer for me nowadays:

- A S85 factory new battery could hold on average a nominal full pack energy of 78kWh(*), thus charging a delta of 80% from 5% to 85% meant adding 62.4kWh.
- A S85 used battery with a nominal full pack energy of 73kWh (as mine), thus 6.4% lost to degradation, needs to charge a delta of 85.5% from 5% to 90.5% in order to add the same 62.4kWh of energy!
- A S85 used battery w/ 2019.16 and a reduction to a nominal full pack energy of 67.1kWh (as mine), thus a total of 14% lost to degradation and only chargeable to 96% soc, needs to charge a delta of 93% from 5% to 98% in order to add the same 62.4kWh of energy!!

By comparing charts with charge rates in kWh in relation to % soc the impact we have to endure is not shown in it's entirety!
Alternatively I propose to compare charts with charge rates in kWh in relation to the added energy in kWh or the added range!

BR! Oaito.


(*) As @wk057 shared with us in 2016 and refined later in April 2019 (see links/ table below) a factory new S 85 battery could contain 80kWh minus one (and only one) buffer of 2kWh: 78kWh. Yet the BMS is trying to calculate the nominal full pack energy (identical to the usable) which leads to fluctuations of up to +/-1kWh: A factory new S85 battery without real world training would show a nominal full pack energy of 79kWh. The individual capacity of the pack would then confirmed or adjusted by the BMS during charging/discharging, thus it could drop down to 77kWh.
The data for the table below and the "how" was given to us by @wk057 in a series of posts back in April 2019:
#1116: Tesla Data Leak | Tesla BMS engineer | almost completely reverse engineered the Tesla BMS
#1118: Factory New Total to Real New Usable capacity formula
#1130 Confirming revised capacity/buffer table | even lower for 85 & 90 | 100 capacity | Model 3 capacity
#1131 BMS Battery Balancing changes by BMS 2016-2019

tesla-battery-pack-actual-and-usable-energy-by-wk057-april-2019-jpg.641610
 

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- A S85 used battery with a nominal full pack energy of 73kWh (as mine), thus 6.4% lost to degradation, needs to charge a delta of 85.5% from 5% to 90.5% in order to add the same 62.4kWh of energy!
- A S85 used battery w/ 2019.16 and a reduction to a nominal full pack energy of 67.1kWh (as mine), thus a total of 14% lost to degradation and only chargeable to 96% soc, needs to charge a delta of 93% from 5% to 98% in order to add the same 62.4kWh of energy!!

Doesn't this ^^^ itself establish a connection, indirect as it might be, between chargegate and batterygate, since you are saying a capped car needs to charge to a higher delta than a non-capped car (assuming the same charging speeds in both cases)? Am I reading it correctly?
 
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I have reread and analyzed Jason's (@wk057) write-up to my data and experience.
Explaining Changes post-firmware 2019.16 Regarding Range Loss | wk057's SkieNET

Jason has requested that I do not directly quote his document. So, I'll refer to line numbers and a couiple of word that starts the pertinent text.

Below are sections that I found interesting. My comments below are in Green.

Line 16 starting with "Reverse engineering"

Line 27 "It's quite" This I completely agree with.

Line 129 "At the" Yet condition Z WAS being mitigated under the guise of condition X by limiting MaxV to 4.07 volts. Rev 2019.28 raised MaxV to 4.10 volts.

Line 195 "The real" (3 sentences) THIS is my problem with this issue. I HAD the range available prior to them “mitigating” it.

Line 203 "these erratic" ending Line 206 "allowed to happen."
THIS is where everyone reads this was to cover a safety issue and in line with the public statement that “out of an abundance of caution” they were pushing new BMS software immediately following 3 publicized fires. I have a lot of details of the fire in San Francisco garage.

Line 208 ending "caution and safety". AGAIN Jason points to caution and safety.

Line 241 "While this" Then he contradicts himself saying there is no safety concern.

Line 291 "It’s not" This leaves more open ended question of what he is leaving out.

Line 311 "This can"
My experience with restoration starting March 2020 and completed Oct 2020 (7 months and 11,000 miles).

Line 324 "It started"
Mitigation started with 2020.8.1.1 in March 2020. 2020.30 was the second round of mitigation and 2020.32 in Aug 2020 was the final release with “full” restoration achieved.

Line 327 "(range which"
Personal experience says the range WAS accessible.

So, We ARE saying the same thing except for Jason’s interpretation of the reasons. May 2019 cell MaxV was lowered on SOME cars to 4.07v, Sept 2019 that was raised to 4.10v and starting in March 2020 the cap was gradually raised (out of abundance of caution) back to 4.20v. That 4.20 seems to be pretty hard in that NO cell seems to exceed 4.201 EVER (so this is the remaining buffer Jason mentioned).

Cheers!
David




 
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Not sure where I noted this, but I did note somewhere that there are multiple variants of Condition Z. The most common is a lower than expected reading, the next is a higher than expected reading, and the final is a completely unexpected reading (in either direction). Every case I saw where top level capacity was locked out by 2019.16 had one of the latter two issues.

Again, keep in mind that even the worst off units were still getting valid or close-enough-to-valid readings MOST of the time pre-2019.16. The disparity is between the range algo and the BMS internal algo is the cause the unusable range as a result of periodic erratic readings. If these erratic readings happened and showed too low of a voltage during a low discharge, the vehicle would shutdown. If they happened during charging and showed too high of a voltage, the car would stop charging (and oddly show the set SoC with "Charging Complete").

Let's say 30 miles were lost by Condition X false detection in 2019.16. If you drive down to 29 miles, you've got a 99% chance of being fine. 15 miles, probably 80%... etc at 10 miles, probably 60-70% chance you'll be fine. at 5 miles, maybe 50/50. (Just estimates based on the amount of voltage delta I've seen condition Z cause and how much would be required in a glitchy reading to shutdown the car). Below that exponentially worse for sure, and would partly depend on how much lead was in your foot.

Saying "I HAD the range available prior to them “mitigating” it" / "Personal experience says the range WAS accessible" based on just being lucky and reaching lower range numbers on occasion doesn't refute anything. Just means you got lucky, and your car didn't get a glitchy reading during the time you attempted to use that range. That's fin.e I'm glad you didn't get stranded! But if your car lost range with 2019.16, and is recovering or has recovered it, then you had Condition Z. Plain and simple.

"Mitigation started with 2020.8.1.1"... I don't see any evidence of that, unless you must have got some early version or some version otherwise not widely released. Definitely evidence this was being internally developed for quite some time, so alpha/beta released may not be in my collection. The earliest version I see doing anything at all is a not-widely distributed version of 2020.20. The wide release was 2020.30-something.

Like I said, the "abundance of caution" update does not appear to correlate at all with 2019.16. Again, look at the version numbers and the timing.

Can agree to disagree I suppose, but I can only go with the data I have available. If you have something that actually goes against anything I've uncovered I'd be happy to look into it... but just saying things like, "You're wrong because my car never shutdown" is not going to cut it.

Edit: Going to specifically address this:
Line 208 ending "caution and safety". AGAIN Jason points to caution and safety.

Line 241 "While this" Then he contradicts himself saying there is no safety concern.

I don't contradict myself, and there is no safety concern.

The first portion is referring to the BMS pre AND post 2019.16. The BMS has always responded to misplaced readings in this manner in order to prevent any bad reading from causing an over charge or over discharge. This is the standard duty of the BMS: to protect the batteries and prevent issues, catastrophic or otherwise. This functionality has been in place since day 1, and is still in place today. This is nothing new, and does not represent a safety issue, rather represents a standard safety function of the BMS that is required for its functionality.

The reason Condition Z is not a safety concern is exactly because of what I described above: The BMS was already overly cautious, and any erroneous reading caused by Condition Z or X would have been treated in the safest possible manner by the BMS, pre and post 2019.16, including premature shutdown of the car.


Edit: Also, thank you for respecting my request and maintaining my copyright.
 
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No matter how you slice and dice the Batterygate saga, it was done for the safety reasons as most of us have believed form day one. You overcharge those cells you have fire.

Can a side effect of the employed "mitigation" be a correction of your displayed range? Sure, it can. But the primary reason was to stop the fire incidents, which we have not had since May 2019.
 
No matter how you slice and dice the Batterygate saga, it was done for the safety reasons as most of us have believed form day one. You overcharge those cells you have fire.

Can a side effect of the employed "mitigation" be a correction of your displayed range? Sure, it can. But the primary reason was to stop the fire incidents, which we have not had since May 2019.

How did Hyundai handle the same issue? Did they decide to basically steal from their customers or recall and replace 82,000 batteries? Well you can read here what they decided to do - and spoiler, Hyundai did not make the same decision as Tesla.

Hyundai's recall of 82,000 electric cars is one of the most expensive in history - CNN
 
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I want to point out that they're not lying here. They did update thermal management settings, and related charging settings. They tweaked the allowed thermal deltas a bit tighter, and they tweaked the thermal vs SoC table a bit tighter, both towards the side of what could be considered safer/cautious. The amount of change was minimal, though, and not likely to cause any real world improvements. The only thing this seemed to do in the wild was make the thermal system work a bit harder than it needed to (more pumping, more fans, more chiller, more heating, etc), and shifted the full-charge-power mark towards a higher temperature by a few degrees with the table change... which would result in slightly less regen at colder temps, and slightly slower charging (super or otherwise) if the pack was colder.

This update wasn't widely available for quite some time.

Keep in mind Tesla's versioning system. YYYY.WW.xx where Y is the year, W is the week. 2019.16 was developed and hit QA on the 16th week of the year, which would be April. Tesla announced their "abundance of caution" update in the middle of May... which would put the version at 2019.20-ish, which would generally hit the public a few weeks later... and according to the firmware trackers did exactly that. Same pace/delay as 2019.16

Which version first included the thermal and charge management tweaks noted? If you're been playing along at home you may have guessed it: 2019.20.

Just basic knowledge of the firmware release cycle and version numbering is enough to separate these issues.
But you missed the main point: Tesla made that linkage in their statement following the fires.

And no one has yet explained the fires. So Tesla has still not unlinked them.
 
Didn't I say that?
In the early days Tesla was treating customers like royalty. They really did go the extra mile to resolve all legitimate complaints. They made promises regarding their products and how they would do business. They lived up to them, their employees believed in them, their customers believed in them and spread the word. Until they didn't.
 
definitely right on that. I bought mine in March 2019 as a 3 year old CPO and 20k miles. It charged at 100+ kW on a regular bases up to 2019.16. Even after 2019.16 I remember it not being limited, but soon after I started to limit around 80kW, and nowadays I don't get anything close to 80kW any more regardless of pre-conditioning or external temp or whatever you have it, and I charge mostly at home and work especially over the past year.
Also, going back on some same issues, even though today's temp was in 70s and inside of the car was in upper 80s from sitting in the sun, I had to set AC to 66 to get to blow any air on auto mode. HVAC working fine my ***. Why does the battery need so much cooling when outside is only 70s

The other part is that lately it just seems to be using exorbent amount of energy. I'm typically in 280-330 Wh/mi range, in the winter somewhat higher, but as of recently, I am constantly in 400 range. Same roads, same foot (as far as I know). Regen is limited at below 60F, but that's been the same whole winter, and if anything, temps are higher now. Not only that, but today was in 70s so battery got warmed up faster, and yet, it was really hard to get below 400. Any thoughts (besides something I'm doing differently) are welcome.
You could have a brake dragging. That happened to me several years ago.
 
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How did Hyundai handle the same issue? Did they decide to basically steal from their customers or recall and replace 82,000 batteries? Well you can read here what they decided to do - and spoiler, Hyundai did not make the same decision as Tesla.

Hyundai's recall of 82,000 electric cars is one of the most expensive in history - CNN


Thanks for referencing this article.

The cost for Tesla to replace our batteries, “a small percentage of owners” per Tesla, is not even more than 3% of what is costing Hyundai to do the safety related recall. That amount is very insignificant considering the blow-back resulted from denial and deception.
 
How did Hyundai handle the same issue? Did they decide to basically steal from their customers or recall and replace 82,000 batteries? Well you can read here what they decided to do - and spoiler, Hyundai did not make the same decision as Tesla.

Hyundai's recall of 82,000 electric cars is one of the most expensive in history - CNN

They had a different and more severe issue than Tesla: "Hyundai said an investigation into the fires showed the cars' defective LG-made battery cells could short circuit."
 
But it isn't the same issue at all. For Hyundai the cells themselves have an internal manufacturing defect...

They had a different and more severe issue than Tesla: "Hyundai said an investigation into the fires showed the cars' defective LG-made battery cells could short circuit."

So what you are saying is that if Tesla reinstated the original charging profile there would not be a problem that would warrant a recall? Tesla has just changed the charging profile because they wanted to see how the owners would react or because an intern thought it would be fun?

But if no one outside Tesla knows what the underlying issue for the downgraded charging profile is, then how do you know is not the same issue, and not only not the same issue, but not 'the same issue at all'.

And even if it is not the same issue, it shows very different way of handling what ever issue it may be.