Sudden Unexpected Acceleration today

[SoCalDude]

Not left... still waiting for an answer from Tesla to see what they share.

@AZM3 Can you provide us with any updates on what is being done with Tesla and your car? Do they have your car? Did you get the car body damaged repaired? Did Tesla take the car and give you a loaner as a precautionary measure? Any preliminary guidance? Are they taking this seriously? Are you guys driving the car or is it parked?

 

[Belt007]

In a March 2015 article by David Noland of Green Car Reports, he states, “I've found there are two completely different both-pedals-pressed situations in the Model S: 1) When the accelerator pedal is the first one pressed--say, if you're driving along with your right foot on the "gas" and you then step on the brake pedal with the left foot--the power appears to cut off completely, and 2) But when the brake pedal is the first one pressed, followed by the accelerator--as in the potentially dangerous inadvertent both-pedals-pressed situation that I and other Model S owners have experienced--the torque does not cut off, or even appear to be significantly limited.

Noland then states: According to Tesla's then-PR chief, Simon Sproule last fall, "If the brake is detected as pressed after the accelerator is already pressed (brake over-ride condition), the motor torque is reduced to zero at fixed rate. If the accelerator is detected as pressed after the brake is detected as pressed ("both-pedal press" condition used for hill start, by drivers using both feet), the current motor torque is limited to no more than 250 Nm."

Noland than adds: “To put that number in perspective, the Model S's 250-Nm (185 ft-lbs) torque "limit" with the brake pedal pressed is more than the maximum torque available in a base Toyota Camry mid-size sedan.

And 250 Nm is 57 percent of the Model S-85's maximum available torque of 440 Nm (325 ft-lb).

The Model S has no dashboard readout for torque, but the 57-percent figure agrees closely with my observed test results for power available with brake pressed: 160 kW, or 59 percent of the car's 270 kW max power. (At a constant rpm, power is directly proportional to torque.)

Bottom line: 250 Nm of torque is more than many cars produce with the accelerator floored”.

 

[AWDtsla]

In a March 2015 article by David Noland of Green Car Reports, he states, “I've found there are two completely different both-pedals-pressed situations in the Model S: 1) When the accelerator pedal is the first one pressed--say, if you're driving along with your right foot on the "gas" and you then step on the brake pedal with the left foot--the power appears to cut off completely, and 2) But when the brake pedal is the first one pressed, followed by the accelerator--as in the potentially dangerous inadvertent both-pedals-pressed situation that I and other Model S owners have experienced--the torque does not cut off, or even appear to be significantly limited.

Noland then states: According to Tesla's then-PR chief, Simon Sproule last fall, "If the brake is detected as pressed after the accelerator is already pressed (brake over-ride condition), the motor torque is reduced to zero at fixed rate. If the accelerator is detected as pressed after the brake is detected as pressed ("both-pedal press" condition used for hill start, by drivers using both feet), the current motor torque is limited to no more than 250 Nm."

Noland than adds: “To put that number in perspective, the Model S's 250-Nm (185 ft-lbs) torque "limit" with the brake pedal pressed is more than the maximum torque available in a base Toyota Camry mid-size sedan.

And 250 Nm is 57 percent of the Model S-85's maximum available torque of 440 Nm (325 ft-lb).

The Model S has no dashboard readout for torque, but the 57-percent figure agrees closely with my observed test results for power available with brake pressed: 160 kW, or 59 percent of the car's 270 kW max power. (At a constant rpm, power is directly proportional to torque.)

Bottom line: 250 Nm of torque is more than many cars produce with the accelerator floored”.

We already have to deal with the both pedals pressed warning, AND the inappropriate placement of the pedals to avoid confusion because we have ninny's like you. Rather than further driver punishment, I think we should remove that code and start revoking the licenses of people that obviously can't operate an automobile.

 

[AWDtsla]

Idiot-proof - Wikipedia

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool"

 

[Belt007]

1. That is a throttle body (engine intake airflow) position sensor. Not an accelerator (pedal) sensor.
   
2. It still uses dual slopes/ ranges for rationality checks. If you offset the values, they will fail. For every X command position, there is only one set of Y inputs.
   
3. If the sensor inputs do not fit the lines, they will be rejected. For each input value, there is only one position possible , if they resolve to different positions, a fault is thrown.
4. It shows monitoring of the supply voltage, thus providing FS reference.

Soneone who has torn down Teslas and looked at the pedal interface interface in SW and HW X owner claims unintended acceleration caused accident

Here is the corresponding accelerator pedal sensor figure. The sensors have different slopes, but not opposite slopes as you originally stated.

And your reference sent me to the following quote by wk057 instead of the one you included in your post:
"wk057, Oct 4, 2016
The accelerator pedal uses two independent hall effect sensors. These are both routed through different wiring harnesses on each side of the car and eventually go directly to the inverter at the rear motor. These sensors each have their own offsets so they can be compared for consistency/accuracy. If the readings from the sensors don't perfectly pass sanity checks in the inverter then the car doesn't move and it throws an alert to the driver to that effect."

This quote mentions "These sensors each have their own offsets...". It does not mention opposite slopes.

 

[mongo]

Here is the corresponding accelerator pedal sensor figure. The sensors have different slopes, but not opposite slopes as you originally stated.

And your reference sent me to the following quote by wk057 instead of the one you included in your post:
"wk057, Oct 4, 2016
The accelerator pedal uses two independent hall effect sensors. These are both routed through different wiring harnesses on each side of the car and eventually go directly to the inverter at the rear motor. These sensors each have their own offsets so they can be compared for consistency/accuracy. If the readings from the sensors don't perfectly pass sanity checks in the inverter then the car doesn't move and it throws an alert to the driver to that effect."

This quote mentions "These sensors each have their own offsets...". It does not mention opposite slopes.

Well then, some are opposite, some are offset.

On the typical GM systems using 3 APP sensors, APP-1 is a positive signal voltage that increases as the pedal is depressed. APP-2 and APP-3 are positive signal voltages that decreases as the pedal is depressed.

For the Ford 3 App sensor system the APP-1 uses a signal voltage with a negative voltage slope of 5-0 volts. APP-2 uses a signal voltage with a positive voltage slope of 0-5 volts, and APP-3 uses a signal voltage with a positive voltage slope of 0-5 volts.

Electronic Throttle Where did the throttle cable go?

In all cases, two values come in, each is range check and converter to a pedal position, if the values match, then they are considered valid and used. Although that Toyota sensor seems less immune with the same slope for both sensors.

 

[AZM3]

That's all pretty numbers and all - but still doesn't change the fact (or ignores it?) that brakes always stop the car regardless of how hard the accelerator pedal is pressed.
In all Tesla's the brake system is independent and not regenerative so will always work.
Therefore - if you are pressing the brake, the car will stop. If you can't stop the car, you are NOT pressing the brake pedal - simple.

Yes - that should be the case but as I alluded to in the original thread the brake force required to stop the car was much greater than what my wife had experienced in driving two other cars she drove in the past.

I have not posted an update to the thread lately as Tesla refused to share the details with me unless I were to bring court subpoena...go figure???? This is not what I expect a pro-consumer company to do if they have nothing to hide. I guess they prepare for the worst but hope for the best that a consumer will not go through the process of suing Tesla for product liability.

Also - heard the CS report on the M3's braking - wonder if this had anything to do with my situation -

Elon Musk admits Tesla Model 3 has a braking issue, promises fix

 

[kengchang]

Er CR has to do with inconsistent braking distance. Nothing to do with unable to brake

 

[brkaus]

Yes - that should be the case but as I alluded to in the original thread the brake force required to stop the car was much greater than what my wife had experienced in driving two other cars she drove in the past.

I have not posted an update to the thread lately as Tesla refused to share the details with me unless I were to bring court subpoena...go figure???? This is not what I expect a pro-consumer company to do if they have nothing to hide. I guess they prepare for the worst but hope for the best that a consumer will not go through the process of suing Tesla for product liability.

Also - heard the CS report on the M3's braking - wonder if this had anything to do with my situation -

Elon Musk admits Tesla Model 3 has a braking issue, promises fix

I thought they already provided you info that the accelerator was pressed according to the logs. Your follow up request was basically a complete design review but f the system. Do I recall correctly?

 

[Daniel in SD]

In a March 2015 article by David Noland of Green Car Reports, he states, “I've found there are two completely different both-pedals-pressed situations in the Model S: 1) When the accelerator pedal is the first one pressed--say, if you're driving along with your right foot on the "gas" and you then step on the brake pedal with the left foot--the power appears to cut off completely, and 2) But when the brake pedal is the first one pressed, followed by the accelerator--as in the potentially dangerous inadvertent both-pedals-pressed situation that I and other Model S owners have experienced--the torque does not cut off, or even appear to be significantly limited.

Noland then states: According to Tesla's then-PR chief, Simon Sproule last fall, "If the brake is detected as pressed after the accelerator is already pressed (brake over-ride condition), the motor torque is reduced to zero at fixed rate. If the accelerator is detected as pressed after the brake is detected as pressed ("both-pedal press" condition used for hill start, by drivers using both feet), the current motor torque is limited to no more than 250 Nm."

Noland than adds: “To put that number in perspective, the Model S's 250-Nm (185 ft-lbs) torque "limit" with the brake pedal pressed is more than the maximum torque available in a base Toyota Camry mid-size sedan.

And 250 Nm is 57 percent of the Model S-85's maximum available torque of 440 Nm (325 ft-lb).

The Model S has no dashboard readout for torque, but the 57-percent figure agrees closely with my observed test results for power available with brake pressed: 160 kW, or 59 percent of the car's 270 kW max power. (At a constant rpm, power is directly proportional to torque.)

Bottom line: 250 Nm of torque is more than many cars produce with the accelerator floored”.

You need to calculate the torque to the wheels! Torque numbers are meaningless without the gear ratio. Then compare it to a Camry in first gear. I think you will find that the Camry produces more torque.

 

[AZM3]

@AZM3 Can you provide us with any updates on what is being done with Tesla and your car? Do they have your car? Did you get the car body damaged repaired? Did Tesla take the car and give you a loaner as a precautionary measure? Any preliminary guidance? Are they taking this seriously? Are you guys driving the car or is it parked?

The car is at the Tesla approved repair shop waiting on parts. I have a rental from my insurance - nothing from Tesla. Given it was an accident, they did not want to touch it with a 100ft pole. The service center will inspect the car once it's fixed to make sure that all the sensors and DAS (Driver Assist System) are up to snuff.

Not sure on the seriousness, the service center told me regarding the logs that corporate has refused to share them.

 

[AZM3]

I thought they already provided you info that the accelerator was pressed according to the logs. Your follow up request was basically a complete design review but f the system. Do I recall correctly?

Maybe you know more than I do? - Care to share?

 

[tpatana]

Maybe you know more than I do? - Care to share?

We all do.

 

[albertv]

Hi Folks,

Long time TMC lurker, however first time poster. I wish my first post would have been about the excitement of getting my M3. However, I have a much serious topic to post about.

Today while out for shopping my wife met with an accident in the parking lot of a grocery store here in Chandler, AZ. She is badly shaken up. Issue occurred while trying to park the vehicle in a parking lot of a grocery store. The vehicle was in the parking space position when it suddenly accelerated without any input from her. She said she applied the brakes, however they felt inoperative. It felt as though the driver had no control over braking and the vehicle had a mind of its own.

She turned the steering wheel to avoid directly hitting a dumpster while trying to brake. The passenger side of the vehicle then hit a curb and a concrete wall. After the impact, she managed to turn the vehicle while applying the brakes that eventually brought the vehicle to a stop.

My wife called Tesla, however they were of not much help. The service center individual instructed my wife that they could not tow the car to the service center given the car had suffered damage and they can only accept cars after the damage has been fixed. Not in the state to argue, we called our insurance and had our car towed to a Tesla authorized repair shop.

I know there are several cases registered with NHTSA and I even found class action lawsuit against Tesla regarding sudden or unintended acceleration, I feel mine is the first case of a Model 3 with behavior that has been seen with S or X several times. What is surprising that EVERY instance of this case has pointed to driver error. I find it ridiculous to dismiss people reporting a serious security flaw with a vehicle to saying - the logs show 100% accelerator press by the driver as the car will NOT do ANYTHING the driver does not intend for it to do. Then how do you explain an individual's reaction to STOMP on the wrong pedal while they are trying to ease into a parking spot?? - it is illogical and irrational to ever surmise that a driver's who's so familiar with the concept of regen braking will press the (wrong) pedal so hard that the car would suddenly accelerate like crazy.

What she went through today is very disconcerting and unsettling. My confidence in cutting edge technology is shaken that helps Tesla to beat other automakers in making technologically forward vehicles. I have been a software professional my entire career and can understand bugs / glitches in the Software. It is one thing to not be able to control volume of the radio of my car (as it happened last night while driving from our friend's house, the left scroll button kept moving the steering wheel even though the option was not enabled), it scary to even think of the car doing what it did! The consequences could have been catastrophic. I am thankful that she is safe as there was the wall protecting her from cross traffic on the main street.

Please be careful, cognizant, and caring of your loved ones.

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A week ago my car behaved strangely.
My emergency brakes failed with some warnings on my dash (something like "emergency brakes are failing" and "press brakes hard to stop the car"). When I stopped at a crossing with my food still on the brakes, my car suddenly jumped forward. Only by pressing the brake paddle with maximum force I managed to bring the car to a hold. Tesla towed my car and I am still waiting to get it back.
The men of the towing company had problems to stop the car after driving onto the loading platform of his towing car. the car rolled backward although the car was in "P". He had to try 3 timers before the brakes held the car on the slope.
When I was at the Tesla service center somebody else came in complaining about the same warnings I had on my car. He was told that they would go off after a while and no service of investigation was needed.

I always thought that stories about sudden acceleration of Teslas were false but I did experience it myself last week.

The problems started when AP2 suddenly performed an emergency stop (I do not know why, there was no reason to do so) and while doing that, I pressed the accelerator not to have a car behind me drive into me.

I have my car for less then 1 month (of which it is in the tesla shop for 1 week now).

As a Tesla is more or less a computer on wheels, they were able to analyze all the logfiles kept in the memory of the car. If it was a software problem, more of us can run into the same issues. I did get a message from the Tesla APP that a software update was installed today.

I hope that Tesla fixes the problem. I will ask for an explanation when I pick up the car. After all, the brakes are is a safety feature that failed and I have to be sure that it does not happen again.

 

[uuz3]

A week ago my car behaved strangely.
My emergency brakes failed with some warnings on my dash (something like "emergency brakes are failing" and "press brakes hard to stop the car"). When I stopped at a crossing with my food still on the brakes, my car suddenly jumped forward. Only by pressing the brake paddle with maximum force I managed to bring the car to a hold. Tesla towed my car and I am still waiting to get it back.
The men of the towing company had problems to stop the car after driving onto the loading platform of his towing car. the car rolled backward although the car was in "P". He had to try 3 timers before the brakes held the car on the slope.
When I was at the Tesla service center somebody else came in complaining about the same warnings I had on my car. He was told that they would go off after a while and no service of investigation was needed.

I always thought that stories about sudden acceleration of Teslas were false but I did experience it myself last week.

The problems started when AP2 suddenly performed an emergency stop (I do not know why, there was no reason to do so) and while doing that, I pressed the accelerator not to have a car behind me drive into me.

I have my car for less then 1 month (of which it is in the tesla shop for 1 week now).

As a Tesla is more or less a computer on wheels, they were able to analyze all the logfiles kept in the memory of the car. If it was a software problem, more of us can run into the same issues. I did get a message from the Tesla APP that a software update was installed today.

I hope that Tesla fixes the problem. I will ask for an explanation when I pick up the car. After all, the brakes are is a safety feature that failed and I have to be sure that it does not happen again.

Sooo.. U got your m3 to netherlands already..?

 

[mongo]

General thoughts for anyone reading.:
Was this a 3 (the forum you are posting in?)

My emergency brakes failed with some warnings on my dash (something like "emergency brakes are failing" and "press brakes hard to stop the car"). When I stopped at a crossing with my food still on the brakes, my car suddenly jumped forward. Only by pressing the brake paddle with maximum force I managed to bring the car to a hold. Tesla towed my car and I am still waiting to get it back.

Sounds like parking brake issue and possibly loss of regen/ drive unit issue. Were you fully stopped when it lurched or still slowing? Loss of regen is reported to feel like acceleration..

The men of the towing company had problems to stop the car after driving onto the loading platform of his towing car. the car rolled backward although the car was in "P". He had to try 3 timers before the brakes held the car on the slope.

That sounds like parking brake failure.

When I was at the Tesla service center somebody else came in complaining about the same warnings I had on my car. He was told that they would go off after a while and no service of investigation was needed.

There is currently an issue with brake (and washer fluid) warning lights turning on at the start of a drive. The warnings go out after a brief amount of time.

The problems started when AP2 suddenly performed an emergency stop (I do not know why, there was no reason to do so) and while doing that, I pressed the accelerator not to have a car behind me drive into me.

AP2 does still have some phantom braking, kudos on reacting quickly. Likely a coincidence, not causality.

 

[JeffK]

A week ago my car behaved strangely.
My emergency brakes failed with some warnings on my dash (something like "emergency brakes are failing" and "press brakes hard to stop the car"). When I stopped at a crossing with my food still on the brakes, my car suddenly jumped forward. Only by pressing the brake paddle with maximum force I managed to bring the car to a hold. Tesla towed my car and I am still waiting to get it back.
The men of the towing company had problems to stop the car after driving onto the loading platform of his towing car. the car rolled backward although the car was in "P". He had to try 3 timers before the brakes held the car on the slope.
When I was at the Tesla service center somebody else came in complaining about the same warnings I had on my car. He was told that they would go off after a while and no service of investigation was needed.

I always thought that stories about sudden acceleration of Teslas were false but I did experience it myself last week.

The problems started when AP2 suddenly performed an emergency stop (I do not know why, there was no reason to do so) and while doing that, I pressed the accelerator not to have a car behind me drive into me.

I have my car for less then 1 month (of which it is in the tesla shop for 1 week now).

As a Tesla is more or less a computer on wheels, they were able to analyze all the logfiles kept in the memory of the car. If it was a software problem, more of us can run into the same issues. I did get a message from the Tesla APP that a software update was installed today.

I hope that Tesla fixes the problem. I will ask for an explanation when I pick up the car. After all, the brakes are is a safety feature that failed and I have to be sure that it does not happen again.

I don't believe this is sudden acceleration, but really a failure of brakes or regen. Which can feel terrifying, I bet. It sounds like it warned you, told you want to do, and then you proceeded to semi-ignore it. I'm glad you finally decided to press the brakes hard to stop the car.

 

[pcpro]

TLDR, but could there be an issue with accidentally pressing the stalk down which sets cruise control instead of pressing the button to park? Since the cruise control gets set to the speed limit instead of where you are at (which is dumb by the way), i can see this unexpected acceleration happening...especially since Tesla floors it in order to get up to the "expected" speed. They need to fix that. I don't see why you should be able to set cruise to 45 MPH if you're going 1 MPH.

 

[mongo]

I don't see why you should be able to set cruise to 45 MPH if you're going 1 MPH.

Because the car in front of you doing a left on the 45 MPH two lane road finally got an opening (and you didn't spring for EAP)...

 

[S-Car.Go]

There have been other more recent reports of erratic acceleration behavior with these cars (one this week). These discussions, including the skepticism is great, but its important to post these incidents to see if there are patterns that may start to emerge. I haven't used auto park since May and have not had another problem. On a related note, P prompt to auto park continue to appear under bizarre circumstances (on the right on local streets filled with parked cars etc, at the last second when I was almost completely backed in to my space in the work lot this morning, suggesting to me that this code needs some tweaking.