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Summary of options for 3-foot requirement between main panel and gas riser

Ampster

Active Member
Supporting Member
........
At this point, I think I should be ok with like-for-like... it just took way more effort to get that assessment than I think is reasonable. Plus the delay pushed me out of the 2020 ITC so I lose 4% on the net purchase amount.
I jumped on this old thread because I have been concerned about the 3 foot rule and a recent visit with my electrician informed me that we may be able to use the like for like rule. I had originally planned a new 200 Amp service panel to replace my 100 Amp Zinsco panel. Doing it this way will avoid the risk of an engineering study and a new service drop to accomodated moving the location of the service panel 3 feet further from the pole.
 

Ampster

Active Member
Supporting Member
An update on my interation with the 36 inch rule. My electrician was not able to convince PG&e to do a like for like swap using a 125 Amp panel to replace a 100 Amp panel. I bit the bullet and bought a 225 Amp panel with a 200 Amp main breaker and we mounted it on the surface. It will cost me $75 for a longer service drop but I got the building inspector to approve it so now PG&E just needs to run the new drop and move the meter. Then I can get final inspection on my solar installation. That permit includes the new 200 Amp service.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
7,441
7,453
Los Altos, CA
An update on my interation with the 36 inch rule. My electrician was not able to convince PG&e to do a like for like swap using a 125 Amp panel to replace a 100 Amp panel. I bit the bullet and bought a 225 Amp panel with a 200 Amp main breaker and we mounted it on the surface. It will cost me $75 for a longer service drop but I got the building inspector to approve it so now PG&E just needs to run the new drop and move the meter. Then I can get final inspection on my solar installation. That permit includes the new 200 Amp service.
You're lucky they didn't make you convert to underground service.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
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VB
I guess technically speaking 'removing' does qualify as 'moving' :)

Seriously... I don't understand how piping an explosive gas into our homes in 2020 is still a thing. It's idiotic on so many... many levels. Sure... in 1974 when heat pumps sucked and electric stoves were terrible it made a little sense. Last time I checked it's not 1974.

2020 sucks for a lot of reasons but at least power electronics and better refrigerants gave us kick a$$ heat pumps and induction cooktops. Might as well use them :)
Gas heat is a lot better feeling that a heat pump.
 
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Ampster

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Supporting Member
Gas heat is a lot better feeling that a heat pump.
Feeling? I am not sure I could tell the difference. I do know the difference when I get my bill because the energy to keep one or two rooms warm is coming from the solar generation I stored. I do like the quiet heat instead of the rumble of the fan of the old inefficient gas furnace. It is much more efficient to move heat with a heat pump. It all depends on where you are standing.
 
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qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
4,810
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VB
Feeling? I am not sure I could tell the difference. I do know the difference when I get my bill because the energy to keep one or two rooms warm is coming from the solar generation I stored. I do like the quiet heat instead of the rumble of the fan of the old inefficient gas furnace. It is much more efficient to move heat with a heat pump. It all depends on where you are standing.
The rumble of the fan? Bro, do you know how a heat pump works.


Literally the only difference is that air is passing through “coils” heated by pressurized gas in a heat pump or by fire by burning natural gas.

The fan would be there either way.

I understand the green guilt angle you are going for though.
 

nwdiver

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Feb 17, 2013
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For the feel, as I said in my post. The gas “coil” gets hotter and thus the air coming out of the vents is hot. The air coming out of a heat pump is Luke warm.

..... so..... slightly warmer air if you happen to be standing right under the vent is worth $150/mo to you???? Not to mention the dozens of other negative externalities and risks..... for slightly warmer air from the vents? ..... really????

And I don't know what kind of weird heat pumps you're using but the air coming out of mine is ~140F. Where does 140F qualify as 'Luke warm'?
 
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holeydonut

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Jun 27, 2020
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East Bay NorCal
Fwiw the Lennox sales rep I spoke with said his customers hate heat pumps because they blow Luke warm air. And people hate stepping out of the shower to be hit by Luke warm. He actively discouraged heat pumps lol.

Btw capital L is better than lukewarm

1645158205600.jpeg
 
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nwdiver

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Feb 17, 2013
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Fwiw the Lennox sales rep I spoke with said his customers hate heat pumps because they blow Luke warm air. And people hate stepping out of the shower to be hit by Luke warm. He actively discouraged heat pumps lol.

Btw capital L is better than lukewarm

I suspect there's going to be a lot rising hate of natural gas soon...

Wyoming customers surprised by high natural gas bills


Sticker Shock: Coloradans Question High Natural Gas Bills


Screen Shot 2022-02-17 at 9.34.25 PM.png


People need to stop making such idiotic energy choices....
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
4,810
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VB
..... so..... slightly warmer air if you happen to be standing right under the vent is worth $150/mo to you???? Not to mention the dozens of other negative externalities and risks..... for slightly warmer air from the vents? ..... really????

And I don't know what kind of weird heat pumps you're using but the air coming out of mine is ~140F. Where does 140F qualify as 'Luke warm'?
Gas heat isn’t 150 more than an electric heat pump where I live. They are about the same… in fact most of the electricity here is produced by natural gas.

I have solar on order but Tesla keeps pushing back the date.
 

nwdiver

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Feb 17, 2013
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United States
Gas heat isn’t 150 more than an electric heat pump where I live. They are about the same… in fact most of the electricity here is produced by natural gas.

I have solar on order but Tesla keeps pushing back the date.

It will be once you have solar. Using electricity produced by natural gas to run a heat pump still uses >50% less natural gas than burning it directly for heat. Less and less electricity is being produced from burning fools fuel in general as more solar and wind are deployed.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
4,810
4,928
VB
It will be once you have solar. Using electricity produced by natural gas to run a heat pump still uses >50% less natural gas than burning it directly for heat. Less and less electricity is being produced from burning fools fuel in general as more solar and wind are deployed.
I have a heat pump now…

The solar still costs money. I could only really afford about 9KW right now…. So that is like 66 percent of my needs. If I financed it it works out to 150 a month, about the same as I am paying now in electricity, but according to Tesla it will only cover 66 percent of my electrical usage.
 

nwdiver

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Feb 17, 2013
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United States
I have a heat pump now…

The solar still costs money. I could only really afford about 9KW right now…. So that is like 66 percent of my needs. If I financed it it works out to 150 a month, about the same as I am paying now in electricity, but according to Tesla it will only cover 66 percent of my electrical usage.

I have enough solar to cover summer cooling. I can't carry winter surplus into the summer so if I didn't have a heat pump I'd just be buying gas and wasting surplus solar in the winter.
 

holeydonut

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Jun 27, 2020
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East Bay NorCal
I have enough solar to cover summer cooling. I can't carry winter surplus into the summer so if I didn't have a heat pump I'd just be buying gas and wasting surplus solar in the winter.


You also had enough money to make significant capital investments in HVAC, Solar Panels, Appliances, and Home Infrastructure without financing. A lot of posts on TMC make it sound like capital is easy to come by for everybody.

Solar is expensive. Heat pumps are expensive. All new appliances are expensive. It is odd to think people can just make all these investments with little burden.

The average solar customer in California is still paying significant recurring monthly costs to access energy. I think we should still consider this element instead of making solar seem like some magical investment that is easy/cheap to obtain.

Even the IOUs in their NEM 3 proposal paint a picture that solar is too cheap. The costs for their ROI calculators are far below actual market rates for residential solar installs.
 

nwdiver

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2013
9,182
13,934
United States
You also had enough money to make significant capital investments in HVAC, Solar Panels, Appliances, and Home Infrastructure without financing. A lot of posts on TMC make it sound like capital is easy to come by for everybody.

I actually didn't. I just planned ahead. People need to start thinking beyond tomorrow and make smarter choices.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
4,128
1,072
auburn, ca
..... so..... slightly warmer air if you happen to be standing right under the vent is worth $150/mo to you???? Not to mention the dozens of other negative externalities and risks..... for slightly warmer air from the vents? ..... really????

And I don't know what kind of weird heat pumps you're using but the air coming out of mine is ~140F. Where does 140F qualify as 'Luke warm'?
we love standing in front of our mini split head pump heads. Yep, they put out some real hot air.

I would guess they are not being used correctly. Meaning, one never turns down or off a heat pump setup. I just leave mine set from 68 to 74, depending on the room, all day long. They are nice and quiet and I LOVE how warm my house is. And did I say I love knowing the cost is zero since the solar is doing great. It 70kwh yesterday.
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
4,128
1,072
auburn, ca
You also had enough money to make significant capital investments in HVAC, Solar Panels, Appliances, and Home Infrastructure without financing. A lot of posts on TMC make it sound like capital is easy to come by for everybody.

Solar is expensive. Heat pumps are expensive. All new appliances are expensive. It is odd to think people can just make all these investments with little burden.

The average solar customer in California is still paying significant recurring monthly costs to access energy. I think we should still consider this element instead of making solar seem like some magical investment that is easy/cheap to obtain.

Even the IOUs in their NEM 3 proposal paint a picture that solar is too cheap. The costs for their ROI calculators are far below actual market rates for residential solar installs.
My bill just came in, used 500kwh last months. With our cool weather and sun, I have been negative for the last week now.
So my back is no like 1800 in my favor, solar is getting better, true up in April. I expect maybe 2500 in the back. Oh well, means I only get maybe a 200 check from PGE, but I am LOVING the upstairs being 72 to 75 degrees in the middle of winter, know it is all free now :)
 
i am in the same boat, no main panel upgrade at all but tesla cancelled my project. I have 90amp and 40 amp breakers on my main panel, tesla was planing to build a new subpanel and connecting to 90amp but they cancelled the installation 3 days before the date saying my main box is 30inch away from gas pipe, even if they touch to thepanel without a change pge will not accept. I am also very disappointed, how did you overcome your issue?

I am planning to cancel my contract with tesla and do with another company
AA2B34FC-5E7A-4B7A-BCC1-C0EA33C02261.jpeg
 

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