Summon seems like a silly party trick to me

[FunSecured]

Agreed. I’m at a loss on why there needs to be such venom in this by some.

If one doesn’t want to be part of Beta, then absolutely no one is forcing its use upon anyone and obviously the car itself can disable the feature set, in addition to the owner/user independently electing to utilize it....or not AND (importantly) where and when.

If someone doesn’t yet feel comfortable or confident in using it in beginning Beta (generally), they can still enjoy the sea of other features in V10 that are objectively...individually...and jointly pretty great and just wait out that refinement..then turn it on down the line.

That said, whether other V10 features like Netflix...YouTube...Hulu...or even going a minute back...Sentry (for example)...those are just...objectively awesome features no one else has in a vehicle and that for most, didn’t even exist when they purchased their vehicles! (but now are car features they’re able to enjoy daily and for the low monthly cost of...“free!”)

For me...-that- is value I appreciate and where FSD/Auto Pilot/Smart Summon are concerned, I enjoy being part of the feedback for Tesla that is going to ultimately transform the way people move.

Like Auto Pilot and Navigate on Auto Pilot, there’re works in progress (this...admittedly more consistently and visibly than the others presently) but one CAN simply manually stop the movement by just taking your finger off the App IF safety is the concern, as it’s supposed to be constantly monitored and in sight when in use anyway.
My experience (thus far) is that this part of the feature in Smart Summon actually works virtually instantaneously and well.

It WOULD be Great if it was better “ready for prime time”..sure...I think everyone agrees that would be wonderful...but that’s completely different than to bestow it essentially zero value when no one else has accomplished anything remotely close (in this AND in all Tesla has done and is doing with FSD).

Miles to go (yes) but for me, that doesn’t mean the miles travelled are valueless.

Rather, they’re foundation...and I appreciate being able to be part of testing and help refine, even though it still needs a lot of work.

 

[diplomat33]

I would like us to improve our understanding of Autonomous Vehicles. So far I am of the opinion your optimism isn’t often warranted and thus it might be fruitful for all if it came down a notch. Just in the name of keeping things real.

Maybe you need to increase your optimism?

Here's how I described Smart Summon: "shitty, half-baked, potentially deadly software in parking lots full of children."

Which parts do you feel are "grossly unfair" or "hyperbolic?"

Parking lots are inarguably full of children.

AV software is inarguably potentially deadly.

The consensus among the media, and even among Tesla fans right here in this thread, is that Smart Summon is half-baked.

So.... which part of my statement is "grossly unfair" or "hyperbolic," @diplomat33? Is it just the word "shitty?" Are you so thin-skinned?

All of it is unfair. You are ignoring all the times when Smart Summon works well. So no, it is not always shitty. And Smart Summon stops at crossings, stops for pedestrians and other cars. It is actually quite cautious. It is not half-baked. And you are also ignoring that the owner has to keep their finger on the button for Smart Summon to work. You make it sound like Tesla released some feature where the car just zips around completely on its own and out of the control of the owner. But that is not the case. The owner is always in control of Smart Summon.

Again, I am not saying Smart Summon is great or awesome or anything. I have had a few bad experiences with Smart Summon. But we need to "keep it real". Talk about the good and the bad. Just characterizing Smart Summon as the worst and a death trap is unfair because it is only looking at the bad and blowing it up and ignoring the positives.

 

[Tam]

Here's how I described Smart Summon: "shitty, half-baked, potentially deadly software in parking lots full of children."

Which parts do you feel are "grossly unfair" or "hyperbolic?"

Parking lots are inarguably full of children.

AV software is inarguably potentially deadly.

The consensus among the media, and even among Tesla fans right here in this thread, is that Smart Summon is half-baked.

So.... which part of my statement is "grossly unfair" or "hyperbolic," @diplomat33? Is it just the word "shitty?" Are you so thin-skinned?

A simple cruise control can be described the same if the driver refuses to brake to avoid slamming into the car in front while using the feature.

I think it's an unfair statement because it excuses the responsibility of the user despite the feature's limitations.

As long as the user uses the feature as instructed, it is safe.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

You are ignoring all the times when Smart Summon works well.

I am -- because those cases are irrelevant. All I care about is the imminent and material danger that Smart Summon now presents in parking lots across the country.

Smart Summon stops at crossings

No it doesn't. Roddie Hasan - راضي on Twitter

other cars

No it doesn't. David F Guajardo on Twitter

It is not half-baked

This thread is literally titled "Summon seems like a silly party trick to me."

The owner is always in control of Smart Summon

Except that a predictable mode of abuse is that the owner uses Summon even when they can't fully see around the car. Many people have already posted videos of themselves using Summon in this way. If the owner can't see the car, they cannot be meaningfully in control over it.

NHTSA defines it this way: "manufacturers should ensure that over the lifespan of the vehicle such technologies themselves do not create unreasonable risks to safety due to predictable abuse or impractical recalibration requirements... Unreasonable risks due to predictable abuse or impractical recalibration requirements may constitute safety-related defects."

Smart Summon invites really, really dangerous predictable abuse, and should legally be considered a safety-related defect.

Talk about the good and the bad

This is a false premise -- if the news is overwhelmingly bad, there is no obligation to give the few good items equal attention.

ignoring the positives

The failure modes are now well-documented, and present an imminent and material danger of grievous injury or death to my family. I don't care if it sometimes works ok. Even the people making the videos where it sometimes works ok make piles of apologies for its bizarre and dangerous behavior.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

I think it's an unfair statement because it excuses the responsibility of the user despite the feature's limitations.

When you use cruise control, you're in the driver's seat. You're in the car, and you can see out the windows. You know what's around you, and you can react to it.

When you use Smart Summon, you have greatly diminished visibility in the best case, because the car is potentially hundreds of feet away. In some cases, you have absolutely no visibility (maybe you let the car go completely out of your sight for a bit).

These two cases are not comparable at all. Smart Summon is not at all like cruise control.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

If one doesn’t want to be part of Beta, then absolutely no one is forcing its use upon anyone

I do not want my 14-month old daughter to be part of this Beta. People are using this *sugar* in parking lots all over the country. How can she opt out?

 

[Tam]

When you use cruise control, you're in the driver's seat. You're in the car, and you can see out the windows. You know what's around you, and you can react to it.

When you use Smart Summon, you have greatly diminished visibility in the best case, because the car is potentially hundreds of feet away. In some cases, you have absolutely no visibility (maybe you let the car go completely out of your sight for a bit).

These two cases are not comparable at all. Smart Summon is not at all like cruise control.

The above explanations support that users need to comply instructions:

1) Simple Cruise Control doesn't brake for you, so do your own braking.

2) Smart Summon needs user's control at all times including but not limited to visibility, audio, and judgment...

 

[Tam]

...NHTSA defines it this way: "manufacturers should ensure that over the lifespan of the vehicle such technologies themselves do not create unreasonable risks to safety due to predictable abuse or impractical recalibration requirements... Unreasonable risks due to predictable abuse or impractical recalibration requirements may constitute safety-related defects."...

That is in the context of Defective Wheels in "United States of America v. General Motors Corporation, a Corporation, Appellant, 518 F.2d 420 (D.C. Cir. 1975)"

So far, with fatal Autopilot collisions, none was cited as "defect" because that's how they are designed and that's how they've been working (to critics: Not Working) as designed.

The design is still: User must be in control at all times.

If user is not in control at any given time, fatality can happen.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

Smart Summon needs user's control at all times including but not limited to visibility, audio, and judgment...

Sorry, it's just not that simple. NHTSA specifically looks for predictable abuse of features like this. There are already dozens of videos of people abusing it right here on TMC. It is not sufficient for the EULA or manual or whatever to instruct people on what they should do, when the feature in question is capable of killing people who fail to use it as intended.

There are legal precedents for this.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

So far, with fatal Autopilot collisions

We're talking about Smart Summon, not Autopilot. (Autopilot is different: you're in the driver's seat, you have good visibility, and you can react accordingly.)

The design is still: User must be in control at all times.

A predictable abuse of Smart Summon is that people will use it in ways such that they can't see the car. There are already multiple videos of users abusing it in this way. The user cannot be meaningfully "in control" of a car they cannot see.

If user is not in control at any given time, fatality can happen.

Hey, look, I think you're finally starting to get it!

 

[Tam]

I do not want my 14-month old daughter to be part of this Beta. People are using this *sugar* in parking lots all over the country. How can she opt out?

That is a valid concern.

However, the concern should be much louder when Simple Summon could go forward and backward a few feet prior to the release of Smart Summon.

There have been numerous reports of crashes with Simple Summon before. I assume because the system is not as sophisticated.

However, with this release of Smart Summon, you can see clearly that it can avoid hitting pedestrians.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

There have been numerous reports of crashes with Simple Summon before

Ok, I also vocally oppose Simple Summon.

you can see clearly that it can avoid hitting pedestrians

There is video evidence all over TMC that the cars can't reliably detect curbs, trash cans, garage walls, grass, reversing vehicle, stop signs, parking space lines, or semi trucks. I have literally zero faith that they can reliably detect prone toddlers.

 

[Tam]

...There is video evidence all over TMC that the cars can't reliably detect curbs, trash cans, garage walls, grass, reversing vehicle, stop signs, parking space lines, or semi trucks. I have literally zero faith that they can reliably detect prone toddlers.

This kind of deficiency will get better with time and your faith will be restored someday.

 

[SandiaGrunt]

This kind of deficiency will get better with time and your faith will be restored someday.

Great. Glad we agree. Get this *sugar* off the road for now.

 

[electronblue]

Maybe you need to increase your optimism?

I would agree with you if I thought cynicism was clouding my realism or my ability to hope for better. I don’t think it is though. I think in your case it may be leading to overly wishful thinking.

For example let’s return to the hubris posted here:

The naysayers were predicting doom, a Smart Summon apocalypse. They said that Smart Summon would be hitting curbs and smashing into cars left and right if Tesla released it to the general public. well, looks like the Apocalypse will have to wait. Smart Summon is out to the general public and we are getting a flood of videos and Smart Summon is really great!

You already acknowledged the message was over the top, so that’s OK, we all go overboard with the rhetoric sometimes. But just looking at the specific points such as hitting curbs (which it has already done) and smashing into other cars (already done as well), we can see how it simply would have been realistic to wait for more information instead of using the moment to paint a narrative based on that optimism.

You talk about being fair, but one can be unfair in many ways — giving too much credit too soon is another way of being unfair.

No, I don’t think Smart Summon is an ”apocalypse” level of event (or if it is, we don’t know it yet anyway) and calling it that isn’t or wouldn’t be fair either. There is reason for hope too. But calling it really great was super-premature — and, turns out, wrong.

 

[PACEMD]

When you use cruise control, you're in the driver's seat. You're in the car, and you can see out the windows. You know what's around you, and you can react to it.

When you use Smart Summon, you have greatly diminished visibility in the best case, because the car is potentially hundreds of feet away. In some cases, you have absolutely no visibility (maybe you let the car go completely out of your sight for a bit).

These two cases are not comparable at all. Smart Summon is not at all like cruise control.

That's why when I use Smart Summon I go out to the car and get in the driver's seat, only then do I have the car come to me. Or rather where I would have been. That way I can stop it when it goes on one of its predictably murderous rampages.

 

[J1mbo]

I have a beautiful, bubbly, happy 14-month old toddler who walks better than some 2 year olds. I watch all these Smart Summon videos with rednecks literally saying "I dunno, I dunno, I can't see it from this angle, I think it's gonna come around the long way."

I think about the very real possibility that one day, some goddamn zombie Tesla, "piloted" by someone I can't even see, is going to turn a corner and hit my child. They won't even know it happened, and will just keep holding that button down with their fat thumb.

This is going to happen to someone, probably very soon.

There is evidence all over TMC that the cars can't properly detect curbs, trash cans, garage walls, grass, reversing vehicle, stop signs, parking space lines, or semi trucks. I have literally zero faith that they can detect prone toddlers.

Hey, you know what? My toddler was (almost) knocked down by an ICE car being reversed out of a parking space in our communal parking lot at home. The driver even knew she was in the area but hadn't realised she was actually right behind his car when he started to reverse. Didn't even hear his car, just heard her screaming when he started moving backwards into her. He kept reversing until he drove over something she'd dropped - he didn't hear her crying or me shouting at him to stop.

Know what else? I take the blame for this. She is a toddler and needs to be "secured" at all times. I shouldn't have allowed her to walk around the parking lot even though I considered it to be "safe". The only safe parking lot is an empty parking lot with the entance barred.

Pointless blaming technology for human error. Know that technology is never perfect and adjust accordingly.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Know what else? I take the blame for this. She is a toddler and needs to be "secured" at all times. I shouldn't have allowed her to walk around the parking lot even though I considered it to be "safe". The only safe parking lot is an empty parking lot with the entance barred.

This is what I was thinking. How many people are letting their toddlers wander around busy parking lots in the first place? I guess anything can happen with small children whom are mobile. Me and my wife don’t (and won’t ever) have kids, so I guess we don’t really know.

 

[emmz0r]

I would rather have a beta / broken feature right now than wait for a version in another 2 years which is a lot better, but probably still has bugs. Sadly I can't even have that since I am in Europe.
One can simply refrain from using it. This is valuable for improving it with real-world testing.

 

[wcorey]

This is great! More than I expected. By that I mean I was hoping for some vid that was neither, "see, it's deadly" nor "it's almost perfect". It's not ready. I do not intend to use it in a crowded parking lot. I was thinking more of a movie theater after a show, minimal people pretty straight isles with no implied 'one way' by virtue of angled parking. I don't believe I'd use it in it's current form. I picked up my M3 Nov 6th 18, V9 had just come out and my car had it preinstalled. After calibration I pulled over into the breakdown lane on the interstate, stopped restarted to activate NoA and used it driving back home. Now that it's almost a year later I can confidently say there was not much improvement in NoA. It works in cases and fails in cases and those cases have been +/- pretty consistent. I mention that only by way of establishing the trajectory of improvement in NoA since it's public release. I would default to assuming that will also be true for Enhanced Summon as well. I do think the speed of motion in the car has dramatically improved as the crawling it used to do was dangerous in and of itself. I appreciate the video of these tests as people can come to their own conclusions whether they want to use it. Given the time since it's NDA release until now and projecting that forward to when we could expect to see FSD, it's clear to me the naysayers were more correct than I gave them credit for. There is no way FSD will be showing up this year or, likely, until the later half of 2020. The singular advantage Tesla has given themselves is now, for those who will actively use ES, they'll acquire very targeted data in navigating parking lots. Further, I agree that learning data can certainly be extrapolated into the larger city driving data sets. Just, not from me...yet.