Super Chargers about to get really busy in the near future

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

They need the SC network to have CCS first. That will take time. What pushed me over the edge was when they re-redesigned the S and X to have the larger charge port opening. That was the first step in unifying the cars globally. CCS will be next. Anyway, we are all just speculating. Time will tell.

They needed to redesign the S and X for the European market and other markets. People there were having to use the CCS Type 2 adapter.

Tesla was _forced_ to change in Europe as _law_ in some countries, including Germany made it impossible to continue to build Superchargers with their modified Type 2 port.
It was also much easier for them to switch as they were already using Type 2 AC charging so they didn't have to have any AC adapters.

There are also some other markets, especially where Tesla doesn't have a full presence where they are a small share of the market where a proprietary plug would be a hindrance.

But in North America, Tesla is still clearly the dominant manufacturer, and still has clearly the best network. It is also expanding it and is at a point where not only is it increasing density and capacity on Interstates, but it's also adding them in locations on other highways.

I just went on a driving vacation where I took my Volt instead of my Kona because our original destination would have depended on a single 24kW CCS charger being available and working to get there. And while it turned out our destination changed, and it would have been possible to drive the Kona around our actual destination, I'd have been dependent again on a single 50kW CCS charger 20 miles away, or a location with multiple plugs 30 miles away (in the same direction).

I'm also going to drive on a vacation in July and while I plan to take my Kona, I'll have to negotiate multiple charging networks, ordering RFID cards or crossing my fingers that we'll have working cell service, and hedge against the possibility that single chargers are either not working or are busy.

(And imagine what state US CCS charging would be if there hadn't been the NRG and VW criminality provide funding!)

As long as Tesla has the current or higher level of sales, it can have its own network.

This desire for The One Plug ignores the fact that we have never had The One Fuel and nobody cares. Maybe people forget that because gas stations are already ubiquitous and because you can't see the 3 fuel tanks buried under gas stations.

 

[bradtem]

Tesla has recently come out and said that they are going to dual-head SCs. That is a DONE DEAL. So, over the next few years, SCs will become dual-head. The why is to capture govt subsidies as well as open up the SC market to non-Teslas in order to expand cashflow and make charging a profit center.

At that point, there is no downside to moving the cars to CCS and only upside. It increases charging station access to Tesla customers by opening up non-Tesla chargers without an adapter and eventually saves Tesla from having to dual-head the SCs.

You can fuss about the "elegance" of TPC but it's like discussing the ergonomics of gas pumps. L2 CCS is functionally equivalent to TPC from an ergonomic standpoint so the connector that is most commonly used is no different. While L3 CCS is bulky it's something you handle for a few seconds. Heck, people are adapting to the Yoke and it is a huge ergonomic step backwards. Plenty of people use L3 CCS every day and it's fine.

Walk us through this. You say there is only upside if Tesla sells a car with a CCS port instead of a Tesla one?
If I buy that car today, it can't charge at any supercharger station without an adapter. Presumably it comes with an adapter. So now at 99% of superchargers I need to get out that adapter. The J1772 adapter is not a nightmare, but nor is it convenient because you need to go into your car to unlock it to remove it for security reasons. I don't see the upside.

So at the same time, Tesla starts putting new superchargers with dual CCS/TPC. All Teslas can charge there with no adapter. Great, but it's costly and there's no upside.

The only upside is the owner of the new CCS Tesla can now charge at EA and the like with no adapter. That's nice, but Superchargers are better and there are more of them, so why is this the priority? I had a CHAdeMO adapter but I only used it when no supercharger was available, and not just because of the 50kw speed.

To consider if there is an upside, if you were buying a Tesla today, and you could choose which charging port to put on it, and you got an adapter to the other port included, which would you pick as your native charging port? I think most people would pick TPC. What would make them flip that decision? If all the superchargers had both, I would flip. Maybe if 60% or more had both, I would pick the CCS one. When would you do it?

 

[STS-134]

So at the same time, Tesla starts putting new superchargers with dual CCS/TPC. All Teslas can charge there with no adapter. Great, but it's costly and there's no upside.

I don't think it's that costly because those connectors apparently wear out very quickly. 1000-2000 cycles is what I read. At a high traffic station, that could be as little as a few months.

If all the superchargers had both, I would flip. Maybe if 60% or more had both, I would pick the CCS one. When would you do it?

But then you'd have to deal with the crappy J1772 connectors at home (and there wouldn't be a way to open the charge port by pressing a button on the connector).

 

[strider]

Walk us through this. You say there is only upside if Tesla sells a car with a CCS port instead of a Tesla one?
If I buy that car today, it can't charge at any supercharger station without an adapter. Presumably it comes with an adapter. So now at 99% of superchargers I need to get out that adapter. The J1772 adapter is not a nightmare, but nor is it convenient because you need to go into your car to unlock it to remove it for security reasons. I don't see the upside.

Strawman. You cannot buy that car today nor did I say that you could/should.

So at the same time, Tesla starts putting new superchargers with dual CCS/TPC. All Teslas can charge there with no adapter. Great, but it's costly and there's no upside.

The upside for Tesla is access to government subsidies, government land (think public rest stops), and cashflow from non-Teslas that can now charge on their network.

To consider if there is an upside, if you were buying a Tesla today, and you could choose which charging port to put on it, and you got an adapter to the other port included, which would you pick as your native charging port? I think most people would pick TPC. What would make them flip that decision? If all the superchargers had both, I would flip. Maybe if 60% or more had both, I would pick the CCS one. When would you do it?

The cars will be the last thing to switch for the reasons you state. The benefit once all SCs have CCS heads is that the SC network becomes a public network and people like @ItsNotAboutTheMoney won't have the dilemma they spoke about with their Kona. Teslas and non-Teslas can use any network without any adapter.

In that case, you say that you would switch. I agree and that is the whole point of my line of thinking here.

Is the button on the charge cable novel? Sure. But we've been opening fuel doors for many decades and it hasn't stopped adoption of cars. Further, plenty of cars require you to "pop" the fuel door from inside before you get out. You would have the same option w/ Tesla - unlock the charge port before you get out of the car to charge. Failing that, you can touch the charge port and it will open. Further, there is no reason that Tesla couldn't add a little transmitter on their J1772 EVSEs and SCs that when you pull the "trigger" on the charge cable it sends the same signal to unlock/open.

 

[bradtem]

Strawman. You cannot buy that car today nor did I say that you could/should.

The upside for Tesla is access to government subsidies, government land (think public rest stops), and cashflow from non-Teslas that can now charge on their network.

The cars will be the last thing to switch for the reasons you state. The benefit once all SCs have CCS heads is that the SC network becomes a public network and people like @ItsNotAboutTheMoney won't have the dilemma they spoke about with their Kona. Teslas and non-Teslas can use any network without any adapter.

In that case, you say that you would switch. I agree and that is the whole point of my line of thinking here.

Is the button on the charge cable novel? Sure. But we've been opening fuel doors for many decades and it hasn't stopped adoption of cars. Further, plenty of cars require you to "pop" the fuel door from inside before you get out. You would have the same option w/ Tesla - unlock the charge port before you get out of the car to charge. Failing that, you can touch the charge port and it will open. Further, there is no reason that Tesla couldn't add a little transmitter on their J1772 EVSEs and SCs that when you pull the "trigger" on the charge cable it sends the same signal to unlock/open.

Yeah, sure, getting grants is an upside for Tesla. But that boils the argument down to "Tesla should switch to CCS because the government will pay them to." And yes, that's true if the payment is large enough. I thought you were suggesting it made sense outside of that.

But for Tesla to switch, it means that eventually the car has to come with just CCS and not TPC on it, as it does in Europe -- where the government forced them. So it's no straw man. What's the day that you would want to buy that car?

I'm a fan of adapters, but it would be nice to try to get adapters that are easy to use. One thing that's annoying is that Tesla locks the connector with an actuated pin in the socket, while 1772 and CCS-1 use a manual clip. If all I had to do was quickly slip on the adapter, and if I could easily pull it off with one press the way I can a TPC that would make it better.

One design would be to make a CCS Tesla with a recessed socket where you can leave the TPC adapter in place. Or, much easier, a recessed TPC socket where you can leave the CCS adapter in place. The latter is easier as it's easy to plug a narrow light TPC into a recessed socket.

I would also design it so the whole module can be field replaced. I start with a recessed TPC that I can leave a CCS in if I'm using a lot of CCS, or quickly pull it out and hang it on a wire if at a supercharger. The Tesla knows it's at a supercharger and could unlock it for you, so you just go to the SC, open the door and pull out the unlocked adapter, let it dangle, plug in TPC, restore it when done. Or disconnect it if barely using CCS. Some day in the future, the "adapter" install would become permanent when I no longer needed TPC anywhere. (All the destination chargers need rewiring for that too.)

 

[strider]

Yeah, sure, getting grants is an upside for Tesla. But that boils the argument down to "Tesla should switch to CCS because the government will pay them to." And yes, that's true if the payment is large enough. I thought you were suggesting it made sense outside of that.

But for Tesla to switch, it means that eventually the car has to come with just CCS and not TPC on it, as it does in Europe -- where the government forced them. So it's no straw man. What's the day that you would want to buy that car?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Early in this thread I thought we established that this move by Tesla was a response to potential govt grants/subsidies. That has been my starting thesis. Further, Tesla has already stated that they are going to add CCS heads to SCs so apparently the payment is large enough to at least do that.

As for when to switch the cars, my answer is the same as yours. Once all SCs have (at least a few) CCS heads. Then Tesla can monitor the mix of plugs that are used at each SC and manage the migration based on usage.

 

[STS-134]

Is the button on the charge cable novel? Sure. But we've been opening fuel doors for many decades and it hasn't stopped adoption of cars. Further, plenty of cars require you to "pop" the fuel door from inside before you get out. You would have the same option w/ Tesla - unlock the charge port before you get out of the car to charge. Failing that, you can touch the charge port and it will open. Further, there is no reason that Tesla couldn't add a little transmitter on their J1772 EVSEs and SCs that when you pull the "trigger" on the charge cable it sends the same signal to unlock/open.

The difference is that you only open the fuel port door once every 300-500 miles, while you open the charge port door every time you pull into the garage. They could add a transmitter to the J1772 EVSE but then you're still dealing with the crappy J1772 latches.

 

[avs007]

I can't remember which update, but one of the previous firmware updates made it so the button on the charger no longer opens the chargeport door. It's been so long since that worked... Like maybe at least 6 months... Hopefully it's not just me.... So I've just gotten used to tapping the door.

 

[STS-134]

I can't remember which update, but one of the previous firmware updates made it so the button on the charger no longer opens the chargeport door. It's been so long since that worked... Like maybe at least 6 months... Hopefully it's not just me.... So I've just gotten used to tapping the door.

Sounds like you have a bad receiver.

 

[strider]

The difference is that you only open the fuel port door once every 300-500 miles, while you open the charge port door every time you pull into the garage. They could add a transmitter to the J1772 EVSE but then you're still dealing with the crappy J1772 latches.

I drove a Volvo XC40 Recharge for 6 months while waiting for my MX. I had no issues w/ either the charge port door or the J1772 EVSE that came with the car. Further, I drove my Roadster for 76,000 miles over 11 years. This required manually opening and closing the charge port door along with manually latching the charge cable. Somehow I managed to survive this horrible inconvenience.

Tempest in a teacup if you ask me.

Again, I like the TPC plug. CCS is a (small IMO) step backwards in ergonomics but otherwise fully functional. Tesla could have TRULY opened up their plug and would have had a shot at getting it adopted, but they chose not to do so. So CCS is what we have. IMO, having everyone on the same plug outweighs the (small) loss in ergonomics. Anyone is, of course, free to disagree. We are all just keyboard warriors spewing our own opinions around here.

 

[STS-134]

I drove a Volvo XC40 Recharge for 6 months while waiting for my MX. I had no issues w/ either the charge port door or the J1772 EVSE that came with the car. Further, I drove my Roadster for 76,000 miles over 11 years. This required manually opening and closing the charge port door along with manually latching the charge cable. Somehow I managed to survive this horrible inconvenience.

Tempest in a teacup if you ask me.

Again, I like the TPC plug. CCS is a (small IMO) step backwards in ergonomics but otherwise fully functional. Tesla could have TRULY opened up their plug and would have had a shot at getting it adopted, but they chose not to do so. So CCS is what we have. IMO, having everyone on the same plug outweighs the (small) loss in ergonomics. Anyone is, of course, free to disagree. We are all just keyboard warriors spewing our own opinions around here.

I currently have a PHEV which requires manual charge port door opening and uses my ChargePoint Home, in addition to the Tesla with the WC. The WC is far superior. Plugging in the Tesla is easy even if I have a heavy bag in the other hand, while plugging in the PHEV often requires that I put down whatever I'm holding.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I can't remember which update, but one of the previous firmware updates made it so the button on the charger no longer opens the chargeport door. It's been so long since that worked... Like maybe at least 6 months... Hopefully it's not just me.... So I've just gotten used to tapping the door.

It works fine on my 2021 Model 3 SR+, I'm on 2022.12.3.5.

 

[avs007]

It works fine on my 2021 Model 3 SR+, I'm on 2022.12.3.5.

Interestingly enough, I just applied firmware update 2022.12.3.20 when I got back from my roadtrip... Any now the button on my charger opens my chargeport door....

 

[TomServo]

Wouldn't it be nice if Tesla would display CCS stations (selectable) as they do for SCer's that show all the same info. So if you are navigating to a CONGESTED aka FULL SCer station you could just press the CCS icon and be rerouted there. No-fuss or delay.

 

[moa999]

Wouldn't it be nice if Tesla would display CCS stations (selectable) as they do for SCer's that show all the same info.

In some European countries a few of the major 3rd party brands including Ionity are shown on the in-car map, and preheating occurs as well.