Super Chargers about to get really busy in the near future

[stopcrazypp]

I've not heard anything new. Let's make it remarkably simple.

then why should it matter to me if the person next to me at a Supercharger pulls up in a VW or a Tesla. (Do you mean in front of me in line....)

It doesn't matter to me, as I said, I rarely, if ever, use Superchargers, but it should matter to frequent Tesla Supercharger users.

Here is why it should matter to the current Tesla Supercharger User
It's simple math.

Tesla Updates Supercharger Map, 35% Growth In 2021​

Meanwhile, deliveries grew by 87% during the same period.​

And Tesla itself will be adding another 1.5 million vehicles to that network next year alone.

View attachment 805568

It's not about exclusivity, it's about business principles and customer service and yes, Tesla makes the cars that use the Superchargers and yes, Tesla owners are underserved. Poor business planning and poor customer service in the name of a revenue stream. A system that is already approaching its breaking point, and we know it's headed for more trouble, and the solution is to add more users?? That's the simple logic of it.

You are missing the fact that by adding only 4 CCS cables per Supercharger station, they get access to federal money, which gives them more resources to expand the network. Heck just piggy backing on the permit applications can have a lot of benefits, especially for sites that would have otherwise balked at a Tesla exclusive station.

These factors are why Tesla is even bothering with this.

 

[Earl]

by adding only 4 CCS cables per Supercharger station, they get access to federal money, which gives them more resources to expand the network.

It isn't clear to me that this part ^^^^ is as valuable

piggy backing on the permit applications can have a lot of benefits, especially for sites that would have otherwise balked at a Tesla exclusive station.

as this part ^^^^ :
Having worked in commercial industry and government contracts, often the excess baggage the government requires costs more than the funding resources. However, the permit portion must deal with governments so it is likely to be huge.

 

[Fairchild]

You are missing the fact that by adding only 4 CCS cables per Supercharger station, they get access to federal money, which gives them more resources to expand the network. Heck just piggy backing on the permit applications can have a lot of benefits, especially for sites that would have otherwise balked at a Tesla exclusive station.

These factors are why Tesla is even bothering with this.

Don't fool yourself. It's profit.

 

[RTPEV]

I've not heard anything new. Let's make it remarkably simple.

then why should it matter to me if the person next to me at a Supercharger pulls up in a VW or a Tesla. (Do you mean in front of me in line....)

It doesn't matter to me, as I said, I rarely, if ever, use Superchargers, but it should matter to frequent Tesla Supercharger users.

Here is why it should matter to the current Tesla Supercharger User
It's simple math.

Tesla Updates Supercharger Map, 35% Growth In 2021​

Meanwhile, deliveries grew by 87% during the same period.​

And Tesla itself will be adding another 1.5 million vehicles to that network next year alone.

Pretty sure we're arguing the same point, that Tesla's growth alone is cause for worry, even though the rest of your post went on to blame other EVs. Granted, I think the point you were making is that "why exacerbate the problem?"

Where I think we disagree, to use one of your analogies, is that I believe that TeslaBurger will only put their "busses welcome" signs out at their locations that have historically seen low usage, and the locations that are typically crammed as you say will continue to turn away those busses.

You ask: "And, BTW, who pays for converting 30,000 charging stations to CCS??"

First, you made the assumption that all stalls will be converted to CCS, which I don't believe is a valid assumption. But the answer to your question would logically be that the users of the system would effectively pay for it.

 

[Fairchild]

Pretty sure we're arguing the same point, that Tesla's growth alone is cause for worry, even though the rest of your post went on to blame other EVs. Granted, I think the point you were making is that "why exacerbate the problem?"

Where I think we disagree, to use one of your analogies, is that I believe that TeslaBurger will only put their "busses welcome" signs out at their locations that have historically seen low usage, and the locations that are typically crammed as you say will continue to turn away those busses.

You ask: "And, BTW, who pays for converting 30,000 charging stations to CCS??"

First, you made the assumption that all stalls will be converted to CCS, which I don't believe is a valid assumption. But the answer to your question would logically be that the users of the system would effectively pay for it.

Don't fool yourself. ALL of us will pay for it.
I just read that the rates in Europe for non- Teslas are = those charged for Tesla. That means we ALL8 pay for it irrespective of how many CCS chargers are constructed there. Paying for the privilege to wait in line.
That's the profit model.

The allocations of new chargers also appears to have gone a bit crazy, as well. Apparently they're putting a new charging stop in Barstow, California with a 100 super chargers. Now I'm aware that's a popular stop between LA and Las Vegas, but 100 superchargers in the desert. Come on man.

As far as where the bus stops are to be placed is concerned, that remains to be seen. In Europe they appear to be fairly universal.

Remember, Tesla has "plenty" of customers (no worries there) and has turned the corner from the customer service model it used to be, to a profit to be made model.

And their argument can be "with more profit made we can turn the world to sustainable energy quicker." Example: That $30 introductory car is now $70k.

Agree that more chargers for all is better. But if Tesla continues to maintain it's 0 debt bottom line, that money to build or modify chargers for others has to come from somewhere and it's going to eventually involve your pocket.

 

[Earl]

$30 introductory car is now $70k.

$30??? It started at $35K Low demand dropped that model and inflation brought the current entry model (previously about $38K) up to $47K.
Granted, that's a jump but don't over do it with $70K nonsense.
By the way, you're not a very early adopter. I was a Tesla customer about 8 years before you were. You stood on my shoulders, others will stand on yours -- if you've got the right stuff to handle it. From the whining, I'm not too confident.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Don't fool yourself. ALL of us will pay for it.
I just read that the rates in Europe for non- Teslas are = those charged for Tesla. That means we ALL8 pay for it irrespective of how many CCS chargers are constructed there. Paying for the privilege to wait in line.
That's the profit model.

The allocations of new chargers also appears to have gone a bit crazy, as well. Apparently they're putting a new charging stop in Barstow, California with a 100 super chargers. Now I'm aware that's a popular stop between LA and Las Vegas, but 100 superchargers in the desert. Come on man.

As far as where the bus stops are to be placed is concerned, that remains to be seen. In Europe they appear to be fairly universal.

Remember, Tesla has "plenty" of customers (no worries there) and has turned the corner from the customer service model it used to be, to a profit to be made model.

And their argument can be "with more profit made we can turn the world to sustainable energy quicker." Example: That $30 introductory car is now $70k.

Agree that more chargers for all is better. But if Tesla continues to maintain it's 0 debt bottom line, that money to build or modify chargers for others has to come from somewhere and it's going to eventually involve your pocket.

Sorry, I'm not following your logic. If supercharger stations will generate profit, doesn't adding CCS plugs actually help, given the CCS cars will generate profit to pay for stations?

If instead supercharger stations are money losers (as I suggest), the only reason for Tesla to do this (especially right now) is because now there is federal funding at stake (plus side benefits for permit approvals).

 

[Rocky_H]

This had the most wild about face I've seen in some time. At first, the position was, "It's those OUTSIDERS who are coming in to ruin OUR network! F*&$ those guys!!" For example:

Disgusting destruction of "good will" and exclusivity,

But people tried to point out that with all cars coming to this are going to be pay-to-play anyway, from all brands, exclusivity or the removal of it really has nothing to do with the load on the stations. The brand doesn't really matter. It's simply wherever the most cars are coming from that are getting dumped onto the network.

But you followed that up with slinging a bunch of snide insults at people and then gave this faulty analogy:

I have 100 computer users on my network and it is really beginning to run slowly and the units are wearing out so rapidly (15% are down) and customers are waiting to access the network. I have a genius consultant who can help me solve my problem. He says, "Simple, add another 50 users from down the street." Great profits.

Again, you're blaming it on the outsiders.
And meanwhile the part you are leaving out is that the company itself is going to be hiring 200 new employees and another 300 more in a few months.....but yeah, sure, make sure to keep blaming those 50 jerk outsiders, right? It's all THEIR fault, huh? Nonsense. The company is crushing its own network with adding tons more of its own users, not the small trickle of users who are outside of the club.

Don't fool yourself. ALL of us will pay for it.

At long last, you did seem to get it. Yes, all of the cars are going to pay the fees for it from now on, and the vast majority of them are going to continue to be more and more Teslas being sold, so they are the ones causing the congestion, while a small portion will be from other brands, who are not really the main source of capacity problems.

 

[Fairchild]

This had the most wild about face I've seen in some time. At first, the position was, "It's those OUTSIDERS who are coming in to ruin OUR network! F*&$ those guys!!" For example:



But people tried to point out that with all cars coming to this are going to be pay-to-play anyway, from all brands, exclusivity or the removal of it really has nothing to do with the load on the stations. The brand doesn't really matter. It's simply wherever the most cars are coming from that are getting dumped onto the network.

But you followed that up with slinging a bunch of snide insults at people and then gave this faulty analogy:


Again, you're blaming it on the outsiders.
And meanwhile the part you are leaving out is that the company itself is going to be hiring 200 new employees and another 300 more in a few months.....but yeah, sure, make sure to keep blaming those 50 jerk outsiders, right? It's all THEIR fault, huh? Nonsense. The company is crushing its own network with adding tons more of its own users, not the small trickle of users who are outside of the club.


At long last, you did seem to get it. Yes, all of the cars are going to pay the fees for it from now on, and the vast majority of them are going to continue to be more and more Teslas being sold, so they are the ones causing the congestion, while a small portion will be from other brands, who are not really the main source of capacity problems.

Alas, you do finally get my main point. "The company is crushing its own network with adding tons more of its own users, not the small trickle of users who are outside of the club." So, now you fully understand that adding more users to a network that is already "crushed" and a network increasingly "crushed" with the delivery of each new Tesla vehicle doesn't make any sense. Thank you.

A trickle? In 2018, there were 20 Auto manufacturers making 40 different electric vehicles. By 2030, Honda research says 40 percent of its North American vehicle sales will be either battery electric or hydrogen, and by 2040 all gas cars will be phased out. A trickle. I'll believe that when Apple allows you to charge their phones with an android cable. And no, the Pi Phone won't either (it might not have a charging cord at all). It's called proprietary charging for a reason.

The trickle: American Honda Motor Co. • BMW North America • Ford Motor Company • General Motors • Hyundai Motor Company • Jaguar Land Rover Limited • Kia Motors America • Mazda Motor Company • Mercedes-Benz USA • Mitsubishi Motors North America • Nissan North America • Stellantis North America • Subaru of America • Tesla Motors • Toyota Motor Sales • Volkswagen Group of America • Volvo Group North America are all currently committed to an electric fleet.

Tesla charging for non-Tesla owners is now supported in five countries Austria, Belgium, Spain, Sweden and the UK via the Tesla app.
Something that finally makes sense to me to some degree, and for Tesla Supercharger uses, is that a group called electric charging has reported that non-Tesla Supercharger users are paying a premium fee above and beyond the cost of the electricity. Now that makes sense and to some degree validates a portion of my points (separate from overloading an already overloaded network (Teslas new builds are at 87% increase, while Superchargers are increasing at 38%). So, at least if they are committed to opening the network non-Tesla users, even Tesla recognizes that each Tesla owner is invested in the network in the legacy price they pay for their vehicle - or maybe they don't care and it's just about making more profit. But they aren't invested enough, however, to provide a free charging cable with your new car. I'm waiting for my Telsa Pi Shaver that comes without a charging cord. I know....I know.......It will have a million-shave battery and charge through neuralink by rubbing it on your face.

 

[cdswm3]

You are missing the fact that by adding only 4 CCS cables per Supercharger station, they get access to federal money, which gives them more resources to expand the network. Heck just piggy backing on the permit applications can have a lot of benefits, especially for sites that would have otherwise balked at a Tesla exclusive station.

These factors are why Tesla is even bothering with this.

It will be all superchargers. Not just 4 per site.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It will be all superchargers. Not just 4 per site.

The requirement only requires 4 per site to get funding. If they want to maximize their returns on the federal money (and minimize impact on Tesla owners) that is an option. Tesla can do above and beyond, but there are no details yet on Tesla's plans AFAIK. If you have source where Tesla has said they will do all superchargers, please post it.

 

[bradtem]

Ways the chargers need not get busy for Tesla drivers:

• CCS charging costs more than Tesla charging (they do this in Europe)
• CCS charging costs MUCH more that Tesla charging if the station is nearly full or full.
• No CCS charging at all if the station is full and Tesla drivers are navigating to this supercharger in a way that it will be heavily loaded when they get there.

Now, many of these chargers will be built using subsidies given to stations that support CCS/CdM, and those subsidies might make rules about this, but I don't know of any which do. It is quite normal for charging stations to have lower rates for a "member" or monthly pass holder (EA does this) and so Tesla can almost surely make a "pass" which comes free with a Tesla and costs a lot otherwise and gives priority access and lower prices at the superchargers.

Though right now the supercharger prices are going through the roof.

 

[RTPEV]

Ways the chargers need not get busy for Tesla drivers:

• CCS charging costs more than Tesla charging (they do this in Europe)
• CCS charging costs MUCH more that Tesla charging if the station is nearly full or full.
• No CCS charging at all if the station is full and Tesla drivers are navigating to this supercharger in a way that it will be heavily loaded when they get there.

Now, many of these chargers will be built using subsidies given to stations that support CCS/CdM, and those subsidies might make rules about this, but I don't know of any which do. It is quite normal for charging stations to have lower rates for a "member" or monthly pass holder (EA does this) and so Tesla can almost surely make a "pass" which comes free with a Tesla and costs a lot otherwise and gives priority access and lower prices at the superchargers.

Though right now the supercharger prices are going through the roof.

You forgot this one:

• CCS charging capability is added only at new or underutilized sites/locations.

I know a lot has been made of Superchargers that are already overcrowded. And I have no doubt this is the case at some sites.

In my travels, however, I have only come across one site that was fully utilized (I didn't have to queue, but I was the last vehicle to pull into the site, making it 100% utilized--15 minutes later there were only 2 cars at this 8-stall site!) For the last trip I took (Nov 2021) I don't think I experienced any site more than 25% occupied (this was on I-95, so not exactly out in the middle of nowhere).

While obviously I appreciate the wide open availability (particularly at V2 sites), to me, pulling into a 24-stall V3 site like Brunswick, GA and seeing only 2 other Teslas plugged in, seems like an enormous waste of resources and potential revenue generating equipment just sitting idle. Yes! Open such a site up to CCS and start getting an ROI on those Superchargers. Or maybe when the Pump-n-Go/Subway one exit down decides that they want to get in on having EV charging, site a CCS-compatible Supercharger there. If Tesla drivers see that that site is nearly fully occupied, they can divert to the existing Brunswick Supercharger.

Nobody is saying that Tesla needs to switch on CCS access overnight to all North American Superchargers (and since it requires hardware upgrades, that's not possible anyway). They can do so methodically in such a way to minimize impact by avoiding already congested areas and focusing on areas that are underutilized or don't even exist yet.

Will they take this approach? Hard to say. I suppose the counter-argument is that they did pretty much turn all sites on in the European countries where they have enabled it. Perhaps after their trials it turned out to not be so big a deal. But given the additional requirement to physically upgrade sites to support CCS and the political motivation to add CCS support to get grants for new sites, their approach in the US might be very different.

 

[Earl]

Ways the chargers need not get busy for Tesla drivers:

• CCS charging costs more than Tesla charging (they do this in Europe)
• CCS charging costs MUCH more that Tesla charging if the station is nearly full or full.
• No CCS charging at all if the station is full and Tesla drivers are navigating to this supercharger in a way that it will be heavily loaded when they get there.

CCS charging capability is added only at new or underutilized sites/locations.

You forgot the long-game:

• Tesla makes so much money off of desperate CCS users that they can start buying land and building out more massive Supercharger sites such as Kettleman City and Baker, CA.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Will they take this approach? Hard to say. I suppose the counter-argument is that they did pretty much turn all sites on in the European countries where they have enabled it. Perhaps after their trials it turned out to not be so big a deal. But given the additional requirement to physically upgrade sites to support CCS and the political motivation to add CCS support to get grants for new sites, their approach in the US might be very different.

Note only in Netherlands did they open up all stations for third party access. In Norway and uk, they are doing a gradual rollout at lower demand stations.

Tesla Expands Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot Program In Europe By 5 Countries

Tesla announced an expansion of its Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot program to several more countries in Europe.

www.google.com

 

[cdswm3]

The requirement only requires 4 per site to get funding. If they want to maximize their returns on the federal money (and minimize impact on Tesla owners) that is an option. Tesla can do above and beyond, but there are no details yet on Tesla's plans AFAIK. If you have source where Tesla has said they will do all superchargers, please post it.

The idea is to be the charging solution for all EV's. To make this happen it will be all connectors moving to CCS and Tesla connectors.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The idea is to be the charging solution for all EV's. To make this happen it will be all connectors moving to CCS and Tesla connectors.

When did Tesla say they want this to be the charging solution for all EVs, disregarding the convenience of Tesla owners that were the ones who funded the stations? Even in Europe they are only rolling out to stations where impact on Tesla owners would be minimized.

Becoming the defacto charging stations for all EVs was never the goal. And in the US, given the Tesla fleet doesn't even have native CCS ports, the impact would be even larger if they blindly convert all superchargers to CCS and open it up to everyone.

 

[zecar]

Here is why it should matter to the current Tesla Supercharger User
It's simple math.

Tesla Updates Supercharger Map, 35% Growth In 2021​

Meanwhile, deliveries grew by 87% during the same period.​

Most stations are underutilized and oversized when built.

 

[strider]

I have posted this in other threads, but I am predicting that Tesla will move away from the TPC (Tesla Proprietary Connector) to CCS in their own cars over the coming years. It doesn't make sense to dual-head the SCs and maintain their own proprietary plug. A move to CCS all the way around will decrease costs and simplify production. Existing cars can use the coming CCS-TPC adapter. Also this migration will take many years.....

Elon/Tesla has never met a govt subsidy they didn't like. Indeed, the sole reason that Tesla has ever posted a profit was because of the sale and receipt of tax credits. They are absolutely doing this to gain access to more govt cheese. However, the side benefit of expedited permitting along with access to more sites (like on turnpikes and such) will be a benefit to all drivers.

With the loss of these credits looming as more manufacturers bring out their own EVs, Tesla will turn the SC network into a cash cow that they can then plow back into the business.

 

[Undecided_2]

Don't fool yourself. ALL of us will pay for it.
I just read that the rates in Europe for non- Teslas are = those charged for Tesla. That means we ALL8 pay for it irrespective of how many CCS chargers are constructed there. Paying for the privilege to wait in line.

In the U.K. non Tesla owners pay a premium per KW at SUC and to access better rates they need to pay install the Tesla app and pay £10.99 per month.