Supercharger Announcement 2013/05/30

[Johan]

In my 27 years of driving, not once have I encountered a scenario where I needed to go on a long roadtrip spur of the moment with not even a few hours of advance notice, but perhaps I'm just living a boring life.

Yeah that must be it :tongue:

I plan to drive my Model S like I stole it every day and I expect my life to become more exciting with it.

 

[efusco]

I agree with everything you said. Perhaps I am one of the very few who keep their SOC in the 50-70% range as a general rule, but from reading this forum there seem to be a number of us. With 4.5, that's pretty easy to do. But for last weekend when I had a long roadtrip, I got a full charge before leaving my house and then also got a full charge the night before I left my hotel to come home. Very simple. I've been getting along just fine without having a SC anywhere near where I live, and I live in the vicinity of a large metro area.

In my 27 years of driving, not once have I encountered a scenario where I needed to go on a long roadtrip spur of the moment with not even a few hours of advance notice, but perhaps I'm just living a boring life.

Not necessarily boring, but perhaps lucky. I've had out of town family members become suddenly ill or injured. I could have delayed a few hours, I guess, but when you're not sure how many hours there are left, you'd like to avoid delays.

I agree with you, in a large part, that there are rarely long trips of immediate urgency...but why not try to accommodate even those when we can?

 

[ckessel]

Agree that there will be a demand for city superchargers. It opens up the market for people living in condos, flats, tenaments, high rises etc, who only have street parking to feasibly own EVs.

The market is going to address that itself as EV adoption increases. There will reach a point where condos, high rises, and such will need to provide EV charge locations for their tenants simply as one of the features of living there, same as washer/dryer hookups or some such. You'll eventually see them on the streets for folks that only have street parking, probably run by the city much the way parking meters are run.

 

[gregincal]

Not necessarily boring, but perhaps lucky. I've had out of town family members become suddenly ill or injured. I could have delayed a few hours, I guess, but when you're not sure how many hours there are left, you'd like to avoid delays.

I agree with you, in a large part, that there are rarely long trips of immediate urgency...but why not try to accommodate even those when we can?

Sure in an ideal world there will be a supercharger on every corner, but it doesn't make sense to design around the rare case. Once people are able to make the intercity trips they need to make Tesla can worry about infill. Even then you only need enough charge to get you to the first supercharger out of town on the way to where you need to go.

 

[bollar]

didn't Tesla just say recently that so many folks are leaving their car near 50% SOC that the next update is going to encourage it as an option?

No. Musk himself suggests an SOC of 85-90 is the best setting for most people. Today, he further elaborated that the two areas to be concerned about are 100% charged and hot for an extended period or near empty. Musk suggests that most other states do not have a significant impact on battery life.

 

[Enadler]

Anybody but me wish that the website would include the locations for at least the rollout that is to occur this summer. If they are planned for Summer 2013 they would already have to be sited and already well into the planning implementation stage. I would assume that some of the Fall 2013 sites have already been selected as well. I think Tesla should include these sites as "Coming Soon" just as they have done with service centers and showrooms.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I agree. I looked for a "Coming soon" section as soon as the page was up. The grey dots on the map are too imprecise.

 

[jerry33]

Is anyone else concerned that almost all of the SC's are located outside of city? Its wonderful for travel but what do you do once you get there? Your hotel might not have charger, your buddy's place will prob only have a 110v plug. The local charging stations will likely be some wimpy 30amp stuff. Even at 70amp HPC, you're still looking at 4+ hours of charging.

Well, I like to sleep for eight hours so there is plenty of time to charge if there is any kind of 220 outlet. For my trip last week the B&B installed a 14-50 for me, so no, I'm not concerned at all. Superchargers are for in-between destinations.

 

[William13]

There are lots of level 2 chargers in cities and destinations. We do need more but that is a different thread. The SC are only for long distance travel. This will keep use down to allow free forever for Model S. Please note that free has not yet been announced for Model X. Note further that Gen 3 is unlikely to be "free forever". I actually hope that Gen 3 needs to pay after first free year to avoid congestion and pay Tesla profits that can be used to expand the SC network.

 

[deonb]

Well, I like to sleep for eight hours so there is plenty of time to charge if there is any kind of 220 outlet. For my trip last week the B&B installed a 14-50 for me, so no, I'm not concerned at all. Superchargers are for in-between destinations.

And if a Hotel does not offer a charger, I'll stay at another Hotel.

Just imagine this summer when there will be 1000's of grinning Tesla owners anxious to try out the newly installed SuperChargers. And person after person phoning up the same hotels in the same areas (since the SuperCharger bands are narrow), going: "Do you offer EV charging? No... Ok, bye for now.".

They'll catch on soon enough.

 

[100thMonkey]

No. Musk himself suggests an SOC of 85-90 is the best setting for most people. Today, he further elaborated that the two areas to be concerned about are 100% charged and hot for an extended period or near empty. Musk suggests that most other states do not have a significant impact on battery life.

no? have you read the release notes for 4.5?

"Charge Limit: Many customers have asked for the ability to adjust the Model S charge level based on individual anticipated driving needs. To provide this flexibility, charge level options, Standard and Max Range, have been replaced with a slider that allows you to specify the charge limit by percentage.

"You can select from 30% to 100% charge."

"Daily: to maximize battery longevity, only charge to the level needed"

I think the release notes suggest that people have requested lower charge limits than the original standard and range and by offering the option it would seem that Tesla agrees that only charging as much as you need on a daily basis helps battery longevity, which supports my assertion that one of the values of a metro located Supercharger would be for the off occasion that one has an unforeseen need on days that only a commute depth charge was scheduled. it's interesting to note that Nissan mentioned a while back that when they added QC's to a place in Japan that had already had quite a few Leafs, they noticed that just the simple presence of a fast charger helps people relax and dip lower into the SOC. metro Superchargers will be a safety blanket at the very least, certainly a lot fewer of them are needed for a car like the S but still they will be valuable in helping people relax with this technology, which is more than half the battle IMHO.

 

[NigelM]

There's a sticky for this discussion over here: What-should-my-ideal-charge-percentage-be-(FWv4-5)

 

[Enadler]

I was at a Tech Talk in NY on Tuesday and this was addressed specifically. The addition of the slider for charge % was not to help with battery life or to satisfy users' requests. We were told that it was for legislative reasons. That was all that was said. We dropped this issue as it really wasn't too important in the scheme of things. Ted the product manager simply recommended that you charge to standard charge and that we you need it use range charge. Very simple. No worrying about whether i will be driving 50 miles today or 150 miles.

no? have you read the release notes for 4.5?

"Charge Limit: Many customers have asked for the ability to adjust the Model S charge level based on individual anticipated driving needs. To provide this flexibility, charge level options, Standard and Max Range, have been replaced with a slider that allows you to specify the charge limit by percentage.

"You can select from 30% to 100% charge."

"Daily: to maximize battery longevity, only charge to the level needed"

I think the release notes suggest that people have requested lower charge limits than the original standard and range and by offering the option it would seem that Tesla agrees that only charging as much as you need on a daily basis helps battery longevity, which supports my assertion that one of the values of a metro located Supercharger would be for the off occasion that one has an unforeseen need on days that only a commute depth charge was scheduled. it's interesting to note that Nissan mentioned a while back that when they added QC's to a place in Japan that had already had quite a few Leafs, they noticed that just the simple presence of a fast charger helps people relax and dip lower into the SOC. metro Superchargers will be a safety blanket at the very least, certainly a lot fewer of them are needed for a car like the S but still they will be valuable in helping people relax with this technology, which is more than half the battle IMHO.

 

[gregincal]

no? have you read the release notes for 4.5?

"Charge Limit: Many customers have asked for the ability to adjust the Model S charge level based on individual anticipated driving needs. To provide this flexibility, charge level options, Standard and Max Range, have been replaced with a slider that allows you to specify the charge limit by percentage.

"You can select from 30% to 100% charge."

"Daily: to maximize battery longevity, only charge to the level needed"

I think the release notes suggest that people have requested lower charge limits than the original standard and range and by offering the option it would seem that Tesla agrees that only charging as much as you need on a daily basis helps battery longevity, which supports my assertion that one of the values of a metro located Supercharger would be for the off occasion that one has an unforeseen need on days that only a commute depth charge was scheduled. it's interesting to note that Nissan mentioned a while back that when they added QC's to a place in Japan that had already had quite a few Leafs, they noticed that just the simple presence of a fast charger helps people relax and dip lower into the SOC. metro Superchargers will be a safety blanket at the very least, certainly a lot fewer of them are needed for a car like the S but still they will be valuable in helping people relax with this technology, which is more than half the battle IMHO.

OK, but it falls into the low priority "nice to have" category. If you are worried, charge more, the effects on battery will be really slight. However if you want to travel between cities, Superchargers are a necessity.

 

[bollar]

no? have you read the release notes for 4.5?

"Charge Limit: Many customers have asked for the ability to adjust the Model S charge level based on individual anticipated driving needs. To provide this flexibility, charge level options, Standard and Max Range, have been replaced with a slider that allows you to specify the charge limit by percentage.

"You can select from 30% to 100% charge."

"Daily: to maximize battery longevity, only charge to the level needed"

I think the release notes suggest that people have requested lower charge limits than the original standard and range and by offering the option it would seem that Tesla agrees that only charging as much as you need on a daily basis helps battery longevity, which supports my assertion that one of the values of a metro located Supercharger would be for the off occasion that one has an unforeseen need on days that only a commute depth charge was scheduled. it's interesting to note that Nissan mentioned a while back that when they added QC's to a place in Japan that had already had quite a few Leafs, they noticed that just the simple presence of a fast charger helps people relax and dip lower into the SOC. metro Superchargers will be a safety blanket at the very least, certainly a lot fewer of them are needed for a car like the S but still they will be valuable in helping people relax with this technology, which is more than half the battle IMHO.

I think Tesla heard from the people who wanted more control over the selection and make the change. Sounds like a customer-service focus to me. There are certainly early customers who want granular control over the charging settings.

But the messaging from the top is consistent -- short of leaving the battery 100% charged and hot for an extended period, other settings have a minimal impact on the battery's life. Over time, I'm sure the enthusiasts on this board will prove or disprove if this is the case.

I understand and respect your interpretation, but I am in the school that over the life of the car, "most people" will be happier with 90% charge and more range than they need, than they will be with having a "just enough" charge that requires a safety blanket.

 

[brianman]

I understand and respect your interpretation, but I am in the school that over the life of the car, "most people" will be happier with 90% charge and more range than they need, than they will be with having a "just enough" charge that requires a safety blanket.

I tend to agree.

1. If you worry about range anxiety, charge to ~90%.
2. If you worry about battery lifetime, charge exactly what you need and take no detours.

Most of us are somewhere in between 1 and 2.

 

[deonb]

There are lots of level 2 chargers in cities and destinations. We do need more but that is a different thread. The SC are only for long distance travel. This will keep use down to allow free forever for Model S. Please note that free has not yet been announced for Model X. Note further that Gen 3 is unlikely to be "free forever". I actually hope that Gen 3 needs to pay after first free year to avoid congestion and pay Tesla profits that can be used to expand the SC network.

No, Gen 3 should also pay upfront (e.g. $2000) for the SuperCharger access.

1) "Free" is a very powerful word-of-mouth selling point. People will say "free" even if they're effectively paying upfront.
2) Upfront is better financially for Tesla in order to fund the rollout. $2000 today is much better than 200 x $10 charges split over 10 years.

This benefits us all. If it's economically viable to install 200 charge locations by charging $2000 per car for e.g. 15'000 cars per year (i.e. $30 million per year), it's also economically viable to have 2000 charge locations by charging $2000 per car for 150'000 cars per year.

And I'd love to be in a situation where there are 2000 charge stations, even though there will be these pesky Gen 3's all over the place.

 

[MikeC]

I was at a Tech Talk in NY on Tuesday and this was addressed specifically. The addition of the slider for charge % was not to help with battery life or to satisfy users' requests. We were told that it was for legislative reasons. That was all that was said. We dropped this issue as it really wasn't too important in the scheme of things. Ted the product manager simply recommended that you charge to standard charge and that we you need it use range charge. Very simple. No worrying about whether i will be driving 50 miles today or 150 miles.

Not familiar with Tech Talk, is this coming from Tesla or speculation? Someone posted somewhere else that the new way the EPA calculates range for all EVs - averaging the "standard" and "range" mode - may have been the reason. Probably also helped that some of us were asking for it. Now what I'd really like to see is some type of summary of the data they have for the %SoC * degradation curve.

 

[ChadS]

Source? I've never come across an RV site that didn't have 14-50s; it's by far the most popular plug for the RVs out there.

I'll be a source. While I agree that 14-50 is the 240V campground standard, most campgrounds in WA, OR and Northern CA do not have 240V charging. A lot do, maybe 40% or so. But more don't. I once got stuck in Northern CA and had to call about twenty campgrounds before I found one with 240V service. I spend a lot of time looking online at which ones do and don't have it before I take a trip in my EV.

Before I took my electric car through campgrounds in the area over the past few years, I had a camper van for 15 years, so I've been to a mess of 'em. (The camper van has a TT-30 connector on it).

The chains (like KOA) and the bigger ones that cater to big rigs are much more likely to have 240V. And it does look like state parks have been adding them (though usually just a few) over the last several years.

 

[Enadler]

Not familiar with Tech Talk, is this coming from Tesla or speculation? Someone posted somewhere else that the new way the EPA calculates range for all EVs - averaging the "standard" and "range" mode - may have been the reason. Probably also helped that some of us were asking for it. Now what I'd really like to see is some type of summary of the data they have for the %SoC * degradation curve.

This talk was with Tesla personnel at the Tesla NY showroom.