Supercharger Crowding?

[Kraken]

I had my first "not ideal" experience last week at a supercharger last week on my trip to Kirkwood ski resort from San Diego.

When I arrived at the Folsom site, all 4 stalls were full. I figured I'd have to wait a little while (10 minutes or so).

I ended up waiting over 30 minutes, during which time 3 of the cars finished charging, one for over 20 minutes, but no one came to move them. None of the cars had any notes with phone numbers, so I just had to wait. Thankfully, the non fully charged owner retuned and moved his car.

What ideally would have been a 30 minute stop turned in to over an hour.

Fortunately, I was able to skip Folsom on the return trip and I'll never need to stop there again once Manteca is up and running.

So you got to an outlet mall right around Christmas time and you were surprised it was busy? Most likely they went shopping to kill the time, and the shopping and checkout line took longer than expected because of the crowd. So, they should have sat in their car to monitor it, rather than go use the resources tesla specifically put the charging location next to?

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that Tesla chose to put the SC's in nice places like outlet malls. Charge the car and go shopping! But you go try on some clothes and wait in a long checkout line and next thing you know the car has been done for 20 minutes. And you're on the other side of the mall and it takes a while to walk back.

Should they have put SC's in really desolate industrial zones with nothing but a porta potty and a vending machine so that people get out of there as soon as possible?
Actually Hawthorne is kind of like that, but it is still crowded!

Exactly.

- - - Updated - - -

Over the holidays I was driving from Los Altos to Truckee - which I cannot do non-stop - and pulled into the Vacaville Supercharger. It was nearly packed (one bay open) with locals. I was only able to get 30kW until someone left.

I have trouble understanding why these people bother. With a PG&E E-9 rate they can charge at home off-peak for $0.04/kWh. A full 85kWh charge will cost them $3.40 and they can enjoy the comfort of their home while they charge. They really must value their time at a very low rate if they are willing to spend an hour or more to save $3.40.

I would be very happy to pay a nominal charge for using a supercharger if it would help discourage use by people who don't need them - so they will be available for people who do.

Perhaps Telsa should have you swipe a credit card and charge you $10 each time you use a supercharger. They then track your car and give you a refund if you were traveling far enough that you needed the charge (0.8*starting range - distance travelled < 30 + allowance for any hills). If you drive home less than 30 miles away after charging (and you had more than 60 miles left before starting) they keep the $10.

well.... There are max 3 or 4 locals to vacaville... I know of me and one other vacaville car. I'll give you that there might be one more i have not seen yet. There is one that has been seen multiple times here, but she said she just passes through a lot, and there is one a lives in napa but works here. Outside of that there is supposedly one more in fairfield (might be the passer through lady). If there were any more, my wife or I would have seen it or had someone mention it to us. Before the supercharger was put in, I had only seen 7 in vacaville ever (other than my own). The ones above, a 60 from Washington, one from the Bay Area, a tesla employee on a weekend trip, and one other random one...


unless the other three not including me all happen to go at once, these weren't locals.


further... Your pricing is jacked up. The low rate is only good for about 5 days for me... Then I'm paying nearly .20/kw .... It wasnt me there, but I blame no one for doing this... Learn to expect it! The general public aren't the same ev minded people everyone here is used to.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm having a hard time thinking these folks were locals.

Vacaville is not a large town 93,000 right now and midway between the Bay Area and Sacramento. I just doubt that many folks in Vacaville own Model S's.

Vacaville though is a great central location for I-5 north and south and I-80 and I-50 into Tahoe. I would venture to guess these folks were traveling as the holiday travel period is still on us.

Maybe we just need more stations.

Exactly.

 

[aaron0k]

Learn to expect it! The general public aren't the same ev minded people everyone here is used to.

Supercharging > 30mins will never be scalable, not if Tesla actually wants to sell a lot of cars. It leads to this... frustrated owners, lecturing each other on EV etiquette (also not scalable). Swapping... is scalable.

 

[Musterion]

Yes, I agree with @Owner and @Kraken and I'm having a hard time believing @vlsidude's claims without evidence. I have charged a few times in Vacaville (once right after it opened when all stalls were occupied) because I need to charge somewhere at least once on trips from Bay Area to Sacramento or beyond and back, and Vacaville is located brilliantly for that commute (Folsom is possible but out of the way, charging at Fremont would require two charges for me). Also the info on E9 rate is irrelevant. First as mentioned the rate quoted is not your average rate, but anyway even with a full charge at home at any cost, you would still need to charge on the way.

Finally with regard to text messages, there is a way you can do this for any charge thresholds if you run an app at home like VisibleTesla. I use it for long trips when I supercharge to get messages, also at home for regular charging, and also to log the supercharging rate itself. But without that, what is wrong with checking your phone app (assuming you have have a phone which can run the Tesla app beyond receiving text messages) a couple times?

Over the holidays I was driving from Los Altos to Truckee - which I cannot do non-stop - and pulled into the Vacaville Supercharger. It was nearly packed (one bay open) with locals. I was only able to get 30kW until someone left.

I have trouble understanding why these people bother. With a PG&E E-9 rate they can charge at home off-peak for $0.04/kWh. A full 85kWh charge will cost them $3.40 and they can enjoy the comfort of their home while they charge. They really must value their time at a very low rate if they are willing to spend an hour or more to save $3.40.

I would be very happy to pay a nominal charge for using a supercharger if it would help discourage use by people who don't need them - so they will be available for people who do.

Perhaps Telsa should have you swipe a credit card and charge you $10 each time you use a supercharger. They then track your car and give you a refund if you were traveling far enough that you needed the charge (0.8*starting range - distance travelled < 30 + allowance for any hills). If you drive home less than 30 miles away after charging (and you had more than 60 miles left before starting) they keep the $10.

I'm having a hard time thinking these folks were locals.

Vacaville is not a large town 93,000 right now and midway between the Bay Area and Sacramento. I just doubt that many folks in Vacaville own Model S's.

Vacaville though is a great central location for I-5 north and south and I-80 and I-50 into Tahoe. I would venture to guess these folks were traveling as the holiday travel period is still on us.

Maybe we just need more stations.

So you got to an outlet mall right around Christmas time and you were surprised it was busy? Most likely they went shopping to kill the time, and the shopping and checkout line took longer than expected because of the crowd. So, they should have sat in their car to monitor it, rather than go use the resources tesla specifically put the charging location next to?

- - - Updated - - -


Exactly.

- - - Updated - - -



well.... There are max 3 or 4 locals to vacaville... I know of me and one other vacaville car. I'll give you that there might be one more i have not seen yet. There is one that has been seen multiple times here, but she said she just passes through a lot, and there is one a lives in napa but works here. Outside of that there is supposedly one more in fairfield (might be the passer through lady). If there were any more, my wife or I would have seen it or had someone mention it to us. Before the supercharger was put in, I had only seen 7 in vacaville ever (other than my own). The ones above, a 60 from Washington, one from the Bay Area, a tesla employee on a weekend trip, and one other random one...


unless the other three not including me all happen to go at once, these weren't locals.


further... Your pricing is jacked up. The low rate is only good for about 5 days for me... Then I'm paying nearly .20/kw .... It wasnt me there, but I blame no one for doing this... Learn to expect it! The general public aren't the same ev minded people everyone here is used to.

- - - Updated - - -


Exactly.

 

[Kraken]

Eh... Evidently there is now another tesla that works on base with me (ran into him today), but I wouldn't consider him a local either.

 

[markb1]

What I think what is more relevant is how many people are using the supercharger as their primary source of power. It doesn't really matter whether they live in the same town as the supercharger, or a few towns away.

 

[Mark Z]

The text and email ideas are good ones. If Tesla wants to save money, they could add a smart phone vibrate and sound alert when the charging is done. It could be done right in the app with no text or email communications necessary. The app would have to keep the car connection alive more often, so there would be some extra 3G data used for the feature. A 5 minute warning might even be better.

 

[liuping]

So you got to an outlet mall right around Christmas time and you were surprised it was busy? Most likely they went shopping to kill the time, and the shopping and checkout line took longer than expected because of the crowd. So, they should have sat in their car to monitor it, rather than go use the resources tesla specifically put the charging location next to?

I had no choice but to use that Supercharger (as do many people on the way to Tahoe), I would have avoided if there was any other way, not only because it's in a mall near Christmas, but also because I had to drive a hour out of my way to use it (a temporary problem the will go way when Manteca opens).

Since 3 of the 4 drivers "took longer than expected", I think it is a problem. Tesla need to take that into account when using outlet malls for SC sites.

I do not expect people to sit in their car, but I would expect them to either check the charge via the phone app, set a timer to return when done, or check on the car periodically.

To sit there for 20 minutes after receiving a full charge, they much have been gone quite a while. And to be honest it's not the nice of a mall, and there are no good sit down restaurants where you might get tied up for an hour or something, so I don't know what they were doing.

 

[ACDriveMotor]

The text and email ideas are good ones. If Tesla wants to save money, they could add a smart phone vibrate and sound alert when the charging is done. It could be done right in the app with no text or email communications necessary. The app would have to keep the car connection alive more often, so there would be some extra 3G data used for the feature. A 5 minute warning might even be better.

Tying it to the app would work if they had a phone app on every smartphone. But they do not and so that is less universal a solution than SMS or email.

 

[roblab]

Several worthless thoughts here.

I was at Folsom and met the local who sat there and charged for 2 hours while I did the 20 minute stop. He bragged to me how it was free and worth his time to come to the SC to charge whenever he needed it, and I could hardly believe it. I had heard of such, but never met it. At least he was sitting in the car and if anyone thought they needed his spot, I would imagine he would move and wait. And he was charging at off peak times, so there were only two of us there.

So, some people think that someone will come move their car with a text or email? Why should they? And how you gonna charge for SC use or non use? Not gonna happen. Point is, some people don't get it. And a lot of people don't keep track of the time. Some just don't care.

Personally, I would like to see a reminder or request at each SC bay to leave a cell phone # on the dash or on the charge port flap so desperate people can call if you have forgotten to return on time.

I like the idea of a text. I don't use email on my phone, but I guess it could be registered with Tesla, but then, what if you forget your phone? Hmmmm.

I guess that's why Tesla would just as soon put in more charger bays. It's a lot easier than trying to train people to be nice or thoughtful.

Second guess is that if you plan your charging, trying to get there off peak can surely save a lot of time. I have used MANY chargers and have NEVER seen all spaces used. Only once did I see only one space free.

Seeing howardc64's comment below, I wanted to say, "I have pepper spray. AND a Taser!" Course, you gotta wait til they move the car.

 

[howardc64]

Don't think text/email will work because relying on etiquette for something that is free doesn't work given human nature. Ever seen those videos showing shoppers pepper spraying others to get at bargains? Ok, I don't think the Tesla crowd will do pepper sprays (I hope not anyways) But bad behavior is unavoidable in certainly percentage of the population. I proposed the following solution in another thread

- Use of super charger require credit card registration
- Charge is free (with registered credit card of course), cost $ when plugged in with battery full after grace period
- maybe even charge $ to charge for cars registered within local region

Do this for the newly sold cars to avoid alienate existing customer base (some will agree but some will not)

I think building more bays is definitely good but Tesla isn't going to want spend lots of money without curtailing the impact of bad behavior. Seems as long as it is all you can eat, some percentage of the population will do just that

 

[andrewket]

The texting solution can be implemented by Tesla and done in a way to protect customer privacy.

You register your mobile phone with tesla.
Tesla has telemetry from your car and the SC. It knows where you are and I assume down to the exact stall.
When charging is complete they send you an alert.
If another owner needs to send you a message, you can a message to SC_location-stall#@teslamotors.com. Tesla anonymously relays it.
Or do this all via the phone app using notifications.
Tesla could also do it by VIN which wouldn't require any geolocation. Allow owners to opt in and you can receive messages at last 8 digits of [email protected]. Heck, a third party could build this for all EVs.

Hmmmmm. App idea.

A

 

[Cottonwood]

Don't think text/email will work because relying on etiquette for something that is free doesn't work given human nature. Ever seen those videos showing shoppers pepper spraying others to get at bargains? Ok, I don't think the Tesla crowd will do pepper sprays (I hope not anyways) But bad behavior is unavoidable in certainly percentage of the population. I proposed the following solution in another thread

There is the stick, and then there is the carrot. Tesla could also run a nice customer loyalty program with every good behavior point putting you in the hat for some nice prizes. Lots of people respond well to rewards and contests, and it provides a positive view of the company.

 

[howardc64]

There is the stick, and then there is the carrot. Tesla could also run a nice customer loyalty program with every good behavior point putting you in the hat for some nice prizes. Lots of people respond well to rewards and contests, and it provides a positive view of the company.

Very good point. Carrot is certainly better than stick. I kinda think free super charger use for long distance travel is a significant enough of a carrot for majority of the customers? I doubt anyone is going to not buy the car due to a few restrictions like can't park at a charger over night and extended time periods.

Building out supercharger network for long distance travel is a critical strategic decision for Tesla. It preserves the fundamental key value proposition of a car which is freedom. Model S with a supercharger network is a bigger value proposition than model S without it. I personally think this is a big deal. It allows one to think of never owning a gasoline car. Elon's cross country trip is designed to showcase this freedom. But the Tesla version of this freedom is constrained by limited locations and longer charger time than gasoline refills. So Tesla's carrot solution is free of charge. Anyhow, the key fundamental value proposition of Superchargers is to travel anywhere and have the freedom to do so. Need some checkpoint to limit the bad behaviors from an all you can eat policy that damage this quite a valuable carrot.

It also seems some considerations is necessary for where to put superchargers. The outlet mall and hotel locations have some nuances that need to be considered

- For outlet mall, how does a car owner intending to do shopping there do charging? Do they wait 30min to charge up, move the car, then shop? or do they charge and hurry back in 30min? Seems like a practical issue for SCs in these type of locations

- For hotels, getting blocked at night time seems like a natural issue.

Anyhow, as long as charging isn't instant and SC locations offer reasons to stop longer, these issues need to be addressed beyond just building more stations.

 

[miimura]

Here's an idea for the SuperCharger team. Write a batch process to scan the logs for times when all stalls are full, meaning a car is connected to every cable at a site. Create a new log of all those cars present at a full site that have been done charging for more than 15 minutes. When a car appears in that list more than 5 times, contact the owner. If they want to be really clever, come up with a "survey" that polls customer satisfaction with the SuperCharger stations and also asks about how long they stay and how full the stalls are. That way, they're not just sending a form letter, but are leading the owner to the conclusion that it's better to keep track of the time at the SuperCharger and move the car when it's done.

 

[jerry33]

like the idea of a text. I don't use email on my phone, but I guess it could be registered with Tesla, but then, what if you forget your phone? Hmmmm..

Whoa, forgot your phone. Isn't that like saying you forgot to put your pants on?

I don't normally check email with the phone either, so text message for me.

 

[Cottonwood]

Very good point. Carrot is certainly better than stick. I kinda think free super charger use for long distance travel is a significant enough of a carrot for majority of the customers? I doubt anyone is going to not buy the car due to a few restrictions like can't park at a charger over night and extended time periods.

Supercharger access is a given for MS users. I was thinking of a carrot for good behavior. Point system.

For example, each good Supercharger use, one point. Each first report of a Supercharger problem 10 points. Timely departure from a full Supercharger site, 5 points... For each 100 points, you get 10% off a Tesla store item, up to 30% per item. Each point enters you in a quarterly contest for "Tour of the factory with Elon," complete with airfare and hotel for two, or track time in the latest P1000+++, etc. ...

Something like this might get a few interested in good behavior. Who knows?

 

[VolkerP]

Supercharger access is a given for MS users. I was thinking of a carrot for good behavior. Point system.

For example, each good Supercharger use, one point. Each first report of a Supercharger problem 10 points. Timely departure from a full Supercharger site, 5 points... For each 100 points, you get 10% off a Tesla store item, up to 30% per item. Each point enters you in a quarterly contest for "Tour of the factory with Elon," complete with airfare and hotel for two, or track time in the latest P1000+++, etc. ...

Something like this might get a few interested in good behavior. Who knows?

I as a share holder don't want to see Tesla handing out cash to honor the 95% well educated people. Problems at superchargers are caused by the 5% ill behaving people.