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Supercharger - Fountain Valley (LIVE 28 Aug 2015, Expanded 27 Oct 2017, 16 stalls)
- Thread starter amptsup
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- California Supercharging USA
As I understand it, it's the peak usage in any 15 minute interval throughout the billing period. The utility customer (Tesla) is levied an extra charge. The demand charge is usually set at various tiers of energy usage (in kW) so, I surmise that perhaps by running the SCs below that cap for all stalls, Tesla can manage its bills better.
Pure conjecture on my part.
Tam
Well-Known Member
1) It's great to know about reduced charging rate due to pairing and sharing but when you talk about 8 bays that were all full with another 11 cars waiting in line, I don't know how that knowledge is helpful in this case.
2) It's great to know to know about that design but it is flawed if the goal is to reduce the charging time when the station is busy with 11 cars behind.
Tam
Well-Known Member
I think I understand how knowledge in this case would give you a consolation prize that OK although you are 11th person in line, soon, you'll be paired up at a reduced rate, and eventually, your rate would be increased when the other paired bay would become vacant and immediately be paired up again.
A better solution would be faster charging rate, no rate reduction when pairing up, and more charging bays. That would increase the turn over rate and cut the waiting time for the other 11 cars in line.
I'm not saying that expanding the network and faster charging stalls is NOT the ideal solution. There have been reports of the Newark, DE Supercharger is designed to run independent and no pairing. That IS a better solution. However, the reality of the situation is FV is congested and hopefully getting Buena Park and Santa Ana will alleviate this congestion. Perhaps Tesla will re-jigger so that there won't need to be any pairing in the future. However, the facts are what they are.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Where are these reports of no pairing?
It seems unlikely that Tesla will take that approach, at least until/unless the number of available spaces becomes a bigger limitation than either the power available or the cost of installation.
Twelve full power stations is better than twelve shared stations, certainly - but wouldn't twenty four shared stations be better yet? It wouldn't cost much more...
I haven't been back to Newark, DE since it was upgraded and this behavior was observed. I believe @Lanny had mentioned it on Twitter. Perhaps he can chime in or any one of the folks who use that location since the upgrade from last year.
Since I work for the local utility in San Diego, I can help clear up the questions related to demand charges. In very general terms, there are a couple of different methodologies that are used for billing commercial customers.
1) A rate where smaller customers pay (for the most part) a simple price per kWh. The threshold for staying on this rate is that your maximum demand for the month must stay under 20 kW (at least in our area). There is a small TOU signal with this rate, but not much.
2) A rate where larger commercial customers with demands over 20 kW (for the most part) pay a less expensive price per kWh (about 1/3 to 1/2 of the price above depending on TOU consumption). But in addition to that lower price for the energy, there is another billing component called a demand charge that is tied to their highest kW demand at two different times in the monthly billing period (coincident with the power system peak, and not coincident with the power system peak). The demand charge is then calculated and billed at a rate that aligns with their maximum kW demand per month.
I've seen incorrect references that demand charges "kick in" at a certain level, etc. and that is not true. You are either on the (1) rate above or the (2) rate. If you're on the (2) rate, then demand charges are in play every month with every bill.
However, having said that, it is still advantageous for a SC site to be on the (2) rate above with demand charges because it works out to be cheaper overall (due to the cheaper price per kWh for energy dominating the calculation that includes the demand charges).
Probably too much information, but it felt that some explanation would help out the discussion....
1) A rate where smaller customers pay (for the most part) a simple price per kWh. The threshold for staying on this rate is that your maximum demand for the month must stay under 20 kW (at least in our area). There is a small TOU signal with this rate, but not much.
2) A rate where larger commercial customers with demands over 20 kW (for the most part) pay a less expensive price per kWh (about 1/3 to 1/2 of the price above depending on TOU consumption). But in addition to that lower price for the energy, there is another billing component called a demand charge that is tied to their highest kW demand at two different times in the monthly billing period (coincident with the power system peak, and not coincident with the power system peak). The demand charge is then calculated and billed at a rate that aligns with their maximum kW demand per month.
I've seen incorrect references that demand charges "kick in" at a certain level, etc. and that is not true. You are either on the (1) rate above or the (2) rate. If you're on the (2) rate, then demand charges are in play every month with every bill.
However, having said that, it is still advantageous for a SC site to be on the (2) rate above with demand charges because it works out to be cheaper overall (due to the cheaper price per kWh for energy dominating the calculation that includes the demand charges).
Probably too much information, but it felt that some explanation would help out the discussion....
Yes, but the demand charges under (2) are somewhat punitive, so it is definitely very much in the consumer's best interest to decrease their maximum demand. Enough so that at the company I worked at, they would sometimes run their backup co-gen turbine on hot days to smooth their peak load.
I guess punitive is in the eye of the beholder, but it does cost more to build infrastructure to serve customers with higher peak demands. If an adjacent customer has half the max monthly demand, then they should pay less. Demand management can pay big dividends.
In my humble opinion, demand management and SC sites don't necessarily go together because charging cars needs to get done. Less stalls, or lower power flow doesn't really get the job done...Energy storage can be useful, but to pay off financially, it has to be available at every instant during the month to shave peak demand and limit maximum demand (whatever that number is). If it runs out of energy to mitigate demand just once, then a new higher max demand will be set for the month.
I'm visiting from Northern Cal this week. where I'm staying has no ev charging on site, which kinda sucks as I'm used to plugging in at home at night. So question is, what is the best time to charge where crowds are minimal? After 10pm? Before 7am? Trying to optimize my charging time to avoid the waits.
brucet999
Active Member
eyespii
Member
I drove by yesterday (Sunday) around 5p, and it was completely full.
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