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I would be very surprised if TM ever installs a supercharger here. I don't think it would make sense from a usage perspective, since there's so many commercial Level 2 chargers available, and the average driving distance is so short. I would bet most Hawaii owners (except for the lucky few P85/signature folks) probably didn't opt for the supercharger option on their 40/60 MS'. Still it would be pretty cool to plug in to a SC in Ala Mo and recharge to full in probably 10-15 minutes!
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
gmtom1, I agree with you. I am afraid we will not see a Supercharger station here, at least for a very long time. I was reading a recent Seeking Alpha article that rationalized the profitability of the Supercharger network on the mainland and Europe. The article stated that a SC site cost $150 without solar and $ 300K with solar. Considering the cost of juice here, a SC site without solar is not very practical. So if this price is correct or close, how many Tesla's would need to be here to make it worthwhile to TM?
We know that TM is building the East coast and West coast SC corridors along with a path across the mainland. We know TM does not charge a fee to use the SC, but that doesn't mean we don't pay for the SC. On an 85 its part of the base price. TM probably has a formula that they use to determine where other SC sites are located. Is that based on reservations and deliveries? Is it based also near Tesla stores to gain SC brand exposure?
What would drive the demand or encourage TM to install a SC site? Number of Tesla's already here with Supercharging capability? The average number of Tesla's purchased with Supercharging capability compared to those purchased without? Over the last 12+ months, I have gleaned descriptions from information that registered Hawaii section TMC members have posted. I've been tracking the features in a spreadsheet for about 40 of the 170+ MS's on Oahu. I've only found data on about 1/4 of the Tesla's on Oahu. Out of the 40 or so, only 8 have SC enabled (7 each 85's, 1 each 60). If that's representative of the other 3/4, that means that only 1 in 5 or 20% have SC. Those numbers don't help us make an argument with TM for a SC site, I believe. I wish they were better.
We already know that SC capability can be enabled after delivery. Ordered with - $2000, after delivery $2500. If it cost the SC $300K as expressed in the article, would we have to "pay" for the SC with enabled Tesla's to earn one? If these 20% count is accurate, does that mean our total number of Tesla's has to grow by 5 times to more than 850 Tesla's at a minimum for TM to break even?
Here's a question that we will probably not see an answer to. Of the 160 or so Tesla's already here, how many owners would have to enable SC for TM to commit to at least 1 SC site? If the cost is in fact $300K how many of the 160+ would need to be enabled to make it cost effective for TM to install and maintain an SC?
Assume for a moment they did decide to install one. Where would it be located? Where's the most effective use or benefit? The existing Service Center? Or should it be more centrally located? Pearl Ridge? Or at the Tesla store for Hawaii's International visitors, where the Owner Advocates could point to it in the parking lot and say, "there's one, that's what they look like"? Where would a Tesla store get the maximum exposure to International visitors? Ala Moana?
For those that have SC enabled already, its a waiting game. Did anyone with SC enabled think we would ever get a SC site? But what good would a SC site do for the 80% that don't have SC enabled? How many would commit or sign a pledge to pay for enabling SC on their Tesla to get a SC site? Does TM install a SC site and hope enough Oahu owners enable SC to help pay for it? Do Oahu owners enable SC in advance before the SC site is installed on the promise its installed? Complicated, huh?
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Although I would love to see a supercharger in Hawaii, I'm fairly certain that we will never see one for all of the reasons that Akikiki pointed out. I'm just glad that Tesla had the vision to not ignore the Hawaii market from the get-go when they were launching the Model S. The logistics are daunting and many other companies don't come to Hawaii until they are already well established on the mainland and then expand here to get what remaining market share they didn't already get. I'm pretty sure a lot of the thanks should go to George Blankenship for pushing to get us a service center right from the beginning.
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
+1 Akikiki & thanks for sharing your thoughts. After reading your post and thinking about the economics, it further reinforced my opinion that we'll never likely see an official TM SC here. The SC cost estimates here are probably low given the high cost of land here. Also, there's much higher penetration of residential PV which mitigates the benefits of "free" SC charging, and most buyers will not likely opt for the 85 or SC options when buying an MS, making the ROI for TM to build one here unlikely.
Having said all that, I do believe we'll definitely see a full TM store here eventually which might have one or two SC stalls available to demo the tech to customers, and which TM might make available to Hawaii MS owners, similar to the locations in CA at TM stores. Given the high amount of asian visitors we get, a store in Royal Hawaiian or Ala Moana would be a perfect way to get additional exposure to the Asia market.
Having said all that, I do believe we'll definitely see a full TM store here eventually which might have one or two SC stalls available to demo the tech to customers, and which TM might make available to Hawaii MS owners, similar to the locations in CA at TM stores. Given the high amount of asian visitors we get, a store in Royal Hawaiian or Ala Moana would be a perfect way to get additional exposure to the Asia market.
The SC says that HECO currently cannot provide enough power to the SC location to supply the demand a Supercharger requires.
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
Location even if it depends on HECO capability is the secondary issue. The first issue is who here has a MS or is going to have a MX that could use it. There's simply too few supercharging capable Tesla's here to do it - YET. I don't think we should work our magic on Barry. It puts him in an awkward position. He's a Tesla asset first and a Hawaii asset second.
I think the first step is to get a count from Oahu owners who is willing to pay to upgrade their 40 or 60 to supercharging capable. Who would promise or commit to paying for the option to turn supercharging on, on their existing Tesla. We don't know what the magic number is that would give TM the incentive to install a supercharge for us.
I wonder how this would start off? Maybe first a list of candidates that say they would pay to enable supercharging and present it to someone at TM. Then maybe TM would tell us how many candidates we need to get an supercharger. Then to get a commitment from those that are interested, TM would prepare a contract that the Oahu owner signs and provides a refundable down payment. Maybe if we did talk TM into a Hawaii Group discount and bring the price down a little to the price when you ordered the car. Good idea?
I think the first step is to get a count from Oahu owners who is willing to pay to upgrade their 40 or 60 to supercharging capable. Who would promise or commit to paying for the option to turn supercharging on, on their existing Tesla. We don't know what the magic number is that would give TM the incentive to install a supercharge for us.
I wonder how this would start off? Maybe first a list of candidates that say they would pay to enable supercharging and present it to someone at TM. Then maybe TM would tell us how many candidates we need to get an supercharger. Then to get a commitment from those that are interested, TM would prepare a contract that the Oahu owner signs and provides a refundable down payment. Maybe if we did talk TM into a Hawaii Group discount and bring the price down a little to the price when you ordered the car. Good idea?
While I think conceptually the idea of having a Supercharger here is cool, I wonder what the point would be. The point of Superchargers is to allow long distance travel (i.e. road trips). Where would you road trip to on Oahu? You can reach any distance on Oahu with a MS that is SC capable and get back without having to recharge. I think this will dissuade Tesla from diverting important resources from other parts of the country where SCs are sorely needed to bring one here.
I would love a network of HPWCs in urban areas though that run at 80 amps. Wouldn't have to share them with other EVs and would get useful charge while shopping, eating, watching a movie.
I would love a network of HPWCs in urban areas though that run at 80 amps. Wouldn't have to share them with other EVs and would get useful charge while shopping, eating, watching a movie.
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
Spleen, You make an excellent point about the rationale of having a supercharger here or maybe better said, not having a supercharger here. It really doesn't make a lot of practical sense. Nice to have but not really practical to obtain. Let's not forget how supercharging works. It charges the battery directly at DC voltage and bypasses the car's internal charger(s).
But who could use a network of HPWC's if they were available here? Remember, HPWC requires twin chargers in the car. Let's go back to the 40 or so Tesla's that I have data on. If those 40 are representative of the 180+ on Oahu then maybe we can use what we know about the 40 to project what all 180+ have. Of these 40, only 5 (1 in 8) have twin chargers. So there's actually fewer Tesla's currently here that can use a network of HPWC's (5) than can use the full capability of a supercharger (8).
Adding a second charger to a existing MS currently cost $3500-$3600 and requires a day in the shop. Enabling Supercharging cost $2500 and can be done Over The Air. At build time configuring the second charger $1500 and enabling Supercharging cost $2000. Which would most people prefer?
Considering the costs to existing owners, to be able to use either Supercharging or even HPWC's with twin chargers, I think we have just talked ourselves out of doing both/either.
But who could use a network of HPWC's if they were available here? Remember, HPWC requires twin chargers in the car. Let's go back to the 40 or so Tesla's that I have data on. If those 40 are representative of the 180+ on Oahu then maybe we can use what we know about the 40 to project what all 180+ have. Of these 40, only 5 (1 in 8) have twin chargers. So there's actually fewer Tesla's currently here that can use a network of HPWC's (5) than can use the full capability of a supercharger (8).
Adding a second charger to a existing MS currently cost $3500-$3600 and requires a day in the shop. Enabling Supercharging cost $2500 and can be done Over The Air. At build time configuring the second charger $1500 and enabling Supercharging cost $2000. Which would most people prefer?
Considering the costs to existing owners, to be able to use either Supercharging or even HPWC's with twin chargers, I think we have just talked ourselves out of doing both/either.
That's not correct. Any Model S can use any HPWC. The amount of power drawn from it will be determined by whether the car has one or two on board chargers. There is nothing preventing a 40kWh Model S with a single charger from using an 80 amp HPWC. It will just draw 40 amps. HPWC has the additional benefit, as noted by spleen, that other EVs can't use it. It's like having a native access-control mechanism. The question is, what useful sites are conducive to hosting such a network of HPWCs? Any retail establishment would be better served by a J1772 station that would attract as many customers as possible.
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
miimura, you are correct, any MS can use the HPWC even when it draws 40 amps. But we were not discussing can we use a low end charging capability. We were looking for ways to supercharge or other high end charging. Most of us can charge at 40 amps at home. The point was not trying to find a few more places we could charge at 40 but places where we could charge at 80+.
Understood. Just wanted to make sure someone didn't read it thinking it didn't work at all. However, 240V 40A is still 50% faster than 208V 30A of the typical public charging stations. So, an HPWC is not completely without value to a single charger MS.
Having a HPWC network around town would definitely encourage people to spring for the 2nd charger in their vehicles. If not for our cars, for future cars coming to Hawaii. 40 amp charging would still be useful if people are low-ish and want to top off while eating or shopping. It could be used as a marketing tool to distinguish one retail location from another to attract Tesla clientele.
I agree there's a lot of practical issues involved but it might be more useful than a SC located at the Service Center (which would get used a lot for local charging by people living in Waipahu, Waikele, and possibly Waipio and to a lesser extent by people living in Ewa, Kunia, and Kapolei). I think that neither the HPWC network nor the SC are likely to happen but it's nice to dream.
I agree there's a lot of practical issues involved but it might be more useful than a SC located at the Service Center (which would get used a lot for local charging by people living in Waipahu, Waikele, and possibly Waipio and to a lesser extent by people living in Ewa, Kunia, and Kapolei). I think that neither the HPWC network nor the SC are likely to happen but it's nice to dream.
Here is my 2¢. I'm originally of the thought that there would never be a supercharger in Hawaii, and for the foreseeable future I don't see that changing. However, I could see it changing in the future under the right circumstances.
If Gen III comes on line and is a hit, Hawaii could get a super charger. No one knows the specs of Gen III…just a lot of speculation. Elon has mentioned that the range of Gen III will be around 300mi. Also there is speculation that Gen III won't be super charger enabled. It still might be able to use the super chargers, but won't charge at the fastest rate. Putting all that aside, what if there are a couple thousand of Gen IIIs in the market eventually along with a thousand Model S and X in about 5 -7 years? Does that amount of cars start to make Tesla think about a charger?
The next question is going to be "why would Tesla put a charger even for that amount of cars when the round trip around Oahu is still around 100 miles?" If Tesla wants to continue to grow and sell a ton of cars, and the cars last longer than ICE cars, then Tesla is going to have to find ways to increase its potential customer base. Right now I'm guessing the vast majority of Tesla owners now have a house or a garage that they can charge their car at. What about people that don't have a garage space or a house to charge at over night? There are a lot of people that just park their car on the street at night. What about people that live in condos (yes I know condos can't deny the installation of a charger, but as dsmith is finding out, getting AOAOs to come up with specs and decide who is going to pay and how to charge for electricity is a confusing task.) where it is too expensive or too much hassle to install a charger? What about landlords that don't allow their renters to install a charger at a property? There is a big segment of the car buying population that has no practical way to charge an electric car on a consistent basis.
Think of cities like Manhattan or SF where the majority of people that have cars fight for parking on the street and don't have a regular garage spot. Very few of these types of people are probably considering purchasing an electric car. What if Tesla puts a couple of supercharger stations in the middle of Manhattan or SF where people that don't have garages or a regular place to park can charge their car on a regular basis? That opens up a whole new class of potential electric car buyers. Maybe it becomes feasible to put a super charger station in Waikiki, Kakaako or Makiki sometime down the road.
I won't say never. When I was growing up, no one even had the slightest idea of the internet.
If Gen III comes on line and is a hit, Hawaii could get a super charger. No one knows the specs of Gen III…just a lot of speculation. Elon has mentioned that the range of Gen III will be around 300mi. Also there is speculation that Gen III won't be super charger enabled. It still might be able to use the super chargers, but won't charge at the fastest rate. Putting all that aside, what if there are a couple thousand of Gen IIIs in the market eventually along with a thousand Model S and X in about 5 -7 years? Does that amount of cars start to make Tesla think about a charger?
The next question is going to be "why would Tesla put a charger even for that amount of cars when the round trip around Oahu is still around 100 miles?" If Tesla wants to continue to grow and sell a ton of cars, and the cars last longer than ICE cars, then Tesla is going to have to find ways to increase its potential customer base. Right now I'm guessing the vast majority of Tesla owners now have a house or a garage that they can charge their car at. What about people that don't have a garage space or a house to charge at over night? There are a lot of people that just park their car on the street at night. What about people that live in condos (yes I know condos can't deny the installation of a charger, but as dsmith is finding out, getting AOAOs to come up with specs and decide who is going to pay and how to charge for electricity is a confusing task.) where it is too expensive or too much hassle to install a charger? What about landlords that don't allow their renters to install a charger at a property? There is a big segment of the car buying population that has no practical way to charge an electric car on a consistent basis.
Think of cities like Manhattan or SF where the majority of people that have cars fight for parking on the street and don't have a regular garage spot. Very few of these types of people are probably considering purchasing an electric car. What if Tesla puts a couple of supercharger stations in the middle of Manhattan or SF where people that don't have garages or a regular place to park can charge their car on a regular basis? That opens up a whole new class of potential electric car buyers. Maybe it becomes feasible to put a super charger station in Waikiki, Kakaako or Makiki sometime down the road.
I won't say never. When I was growing up, no one even had the slightest idea of the internet.
I do like the discussions that have been posted. Here is my take on this. As other electric vehicles come to market, there will be a need for HPWC stations, even if it is not a Supercharger. Certainly, those vehicles may not have the same range as the MS or MX. And we don't even know what the specs of the Gen III will be. There will be more demand for faster stations.
And we need to start to push our legislators to put more bite to the law regarding charging stations at parking lots. There are still parking lots that meet the standard that still don't have EV stalls or charging stations.
One thing I am concerned about is the need to enforce the parking limits at these stations. If their EVs charge quicker, it would be necessary to ask those drivers to move out of the stall once their vehicles are fully charged so that others can use them. We all know of examples where EVs are plugged in at parking lots for hours, even though they are fully charged. We all know that smartphones are becoming more common and that there are apps to monitor charging of EVs. Common courtesy is to move their vehicle.
And we need to start to push our legislators to put more bite to the law regarding charging stations at parking lots. There are still parking lots that meet the standard that still don't have EV stalls or charging stations.
One thing I am concerned about is the need to enforce the parking limits at these stations. If their EVs charge quicker, it would be necessary to ask those drivers to move out of the stall once their vehicles are fully charged so that others can use them. We all know of examples where EVs are plugged in at parking lots for hours, even though they are fully charged. We all know that smartphones are becoming more common and that there are apps to monitor charging of EVs. Common courtesy is to move their vehicle.
jeffdhood
Member
Here's my two cents... The Big Island, as most of you probably already know, is nearly twice as big as all the other islands combined. Call me unreasonable (I've been called worse), but I believe that if Elon wants to sell more cars to the hundreds of people from all over the world who have second homes here (many of whom arrive in private jets), he is going to have to ante up a supercharger in Kona and Hilo.
In the meantime, even though I've now made two trips to Hilo from my home in Kona; and after charging over a leisurely lunch & movie, made it home with 50 miles of range to spare. I have bought a second home in Hilo, that among other things, will allow me to charge Tessie without having to hang out at the mall for three hours. So, if you find yourself in Kona or Hilo in need of a charge, give me a call!
In the meantime, even though I've now made two trips to Hilo from my home in Kona; and after charging over a leisurely lunch & movie, made it home with 50 miles of range to spare. I have bought a second home in Hilo, that among other things, will allow me to charge Tessie without having to hang out at the mall for three hours. So, if you find yourself in Kona or Hilo in need of a charge, give me a call!
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Too bad we don't have the Superferry. That would be so cool to drive my MS in Kona.
