Supercharger "pirate adapters"?

[Darmie]

OH my, these cars start at $103,000.00 and go up to $190,000.00. I think at that price, he needs a freebie every now and then.

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/panamera/panamera-e-hybrid-models/

 

[adaptabl]

Except that the "Betamax" from your example is outselling the VHS version by about four to one lately.

There's a pretty good chance Tesla will become the standard connector despite the standards body by virtue of the fact that they are selling all the cars and installing all the chargers.

Not hard when the technology is dead. No one makes VHS equipment any longer. Beta was always a niche market that never became a standard. Maybe the Tesla charger will become the standard when no one charges a car anymore.

 

[Saghost]

Not hard when the technology is dead. No one makes VHS equipment any longer. Beta was always a niche market that never became a standard. Maybe the Tesla charger will become the standard when no one charges a car anymore.

What I meant that you appear to be choosing to miss/ignore is that Tesla is selling around 80% of the DCFC capable EVs sold in the U.S. ever since they got their 3 line sorted out.

More than half of all BEVs sold in the U.S. since the new generation started in 2008 are now Teslas, and it seems unlikely that this trend will reverse any time soon given the various company's announced production plans so far.

At the same time, there are far more Supercharger stalls than 150 kW CCS stalls, and the Superchargers are being installed at a higher rate.

 

[Rocky_H]

Still Tesla charge port is not a standard and will not continue. Betamax was better than VHS back in the day but VHS became dominate and BETA died no matter what Sony did.

Hang on, let me edit that for you:
"Still [Apple] charge port is not a standard and will not continue. [The lightning connector] was better than [micro USB] back in the day but [micro USB] became dominate (sic) and [the lightning connector] died no matter what [Apple] did."

Oh, so there is just one type of cell phone in the world now, huh? See how wrong that is? Apple does fine, while being proprietary about everything and thumbing their nose at standards. If there is a proprietary and a non-proprietary version, both can survive, if the proprietary one's product is good enough and market share is high enough. See also: Microsoft's non standards compliant, proprietary and broken Internet Explorer, that doesn't comply with published world wide web standards. It continues to exist (unfortunately).

So quite possibly, there may not evolve one particular charging standard for North America. Tesla's Superchargers, and CCS may both continue to be used and thrive, much like Apple and Android phones both continue to be incompatible, but exist in parallel in quite large solid market shares.

 

[mrElbe]

Yep. Thirty seconds for the gen Two HPWC. We have occasionally charged our leaf with our adapter at a local winery with a gen 2 unit.

But how do you know that the DIP switch inside the unit was not in the "Legacy" position?

 

[Knightshade]

Hang on, let me edit that for you:
"Still [Apple] charge port is not a standard and will not continue. [The lightning connector] was better than [micro USB] back in the day but [micro USB] became dominate (sic) and [the lightning connector] died no matter what [Apple] did."

Oh, so there is just one type of cell phone in the world now, huh? See how wrong that is? Apple does fine, while being proprietary about everything and thumbing their nose at standards. If there is a proprietary and a non-proprietary version, both can survive, if the proprietary one's product is good enough and market share is high enough. See also: Microsoft's non standards compliant, proprietary and broken Internet Explorer, that doesn't comply with published world wide web standards. It continues to exist (unfortunately).

The problem with this analogy though is both plug into a standard USB charger using the right cable.

I can plug my iphone into an android charger just fine using a lightning cable.

An android phone will plug into my phone charger just fine using the appropriate cable too.

(speeds may vary- but the charger will work on either type of port)

But I can't plug my Model 3 into a CSS or ChaDemo charger at all (and have it work anyway)

Nor can a non-Tesla owner plug into a supercharger (legally) and have it work.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

But how do you know that the DIP switch inside the unit was not in the "Legacy" position?

Yah, good point. And I think that is the only gen two unit we have hooked on to. I think I have used on a total of maybe 3 or 4 HPWC's. Doesn't get a lot of use. Handy in a pinch though.

 

[SSonnentag]

Tesla plugs predate CCS and J1772. Tesla came up with their plug out of necessity, not to snub other standards or manufacturers. You've got it all bass ackwards.

 

[Knightshade]

At the same time, there are far more Supercharger stalls than 150 kW CCS stalls, and the Superchargers are being installed at a higher rate.

You sure about the higher future install rate?

Tesla installed 167 supercharger locations in the US in all of 2018 (much lower than they originally predicted, but they badly miss their claimed SC install targets every year)

Electrify America alone shows 120 non-tesla fast charge locations in the US and they only started opening em in July 2018.

 

[MP3Mike]

But I can't plug my Model 3 into a CSS or ChaDemo charger at all (and have it work anyway)

That is likely to change "soon". (You will just need the appropriate "cable".)

 

[Saghost]

You sure about the higher future install rate?

Tesla installed 167 supercharger locations in the US in all of 2018 (much lower than they originally predicted, but they badly miss their claimed SC install targets every year)

Electrify America alone shows 120 non-tesla fast charge locations in the US and they only started opening em in July 2018.

How many stalls per location? How many of those are 150kW (or 350kW) instead of 50kW?

I haven't attempted to run numbers, but I'm pretty sure given all the threads about delays and EA not meeting schedules that the rates aren't in doubt.

 

[Rocky_H]

The problem with this analogy though is both plug into a standard USB charger using the right cable.

I can plug my iphone into an android charger just fine using a lightning cable.

An android phone will plug into my phone charger just fine using the appropriate cable too.

(speeds may vary- but the charger will work on either type of port)

But I can't plug my Model 3 into a CSS or ChaDemo charger at all (and have it work anyway)

Nor can a non-Tesla owner plug into a supercharger (legally) and have it work.

Here's the flaw in your analogy, though. You're stating here how you can plug your phone into something if you bring your own charging equipment(cable). Well, sure, if you bring your own proprietary charging equipment for your device (phone or car), then you can probably find an outlet or power connection that is standard enough to plug your charging cord into for your phone or car. So the phone analogy does still match the car. Because I can match that CCS/CHAdeMO situation you just mentioned at the end. I stayed at an AirBNB on a trip last year, and they had two different types of phone cables in the room, but neither one fit my phone, because they were Apple lightning and USB-C, but my phone takes micro USB. So if I hadn't brought my own charging cable that fit my phone, I wouldn't have been able to plug into either of those, even though they are reasonably common plug types. It just happens sometimes, and that is not going to resolve down to just one standard.

 

[Knightshade]

Here's the flaw in your analogy, though. You're stating here how you can plug your phone into something if you bring your own charging equipment(cable). Well, sure, if you bring your own proprietary charging equipment for your device (phone or car), then you can probably find an outlet or power connection that is standard enough to plug your charging cord into for your phone or car.

Except, no, you can't do that for the car.

Because there are no CCS or ChaDemo adapters for the Model 3 in the US. (nor any CCS one for the S/X)

Nor can you (legally) plug a non-tesla into a tesla supercharger regardless of cables you bring with you.

While those things DO exist for phones, making sharing a charger trivial.

Hence why the analogy I made is 100% accurate.

That is likely to change "soon". (You will just need the appropriate "cable".)

Yeah, it's been "coming soon" since 2017 now for the model 3 ChaDemo adapter and still no release date offered.... I'm unaware of a US CCS one even being discussed (by Tesla)

 

[Knightshade]

I haven't attempted to run numbers, but I'm pretty sure given all the threads about delays and EA not meeting schedules that the rates aren't in doubt.

So you have no idea what the numbers are, but you are "pretty sure" they say what you imagine they do, with apparently noting on which to base that assumption?

Tesla hasn't met their "scheduled" # of supercharger installs in... ever... so not sure that's much to go on.


FWIW when I uncheck "L2" chargers from the electrify america filter it drops from 120 locations to...105. So not that big a drop.

I don't see any easy way to filter by exact charging rate on the L3 sites though but you're welcome to look for yourself (and lots of busy SC or urban locations rarely get you much over 50kw anyway on the tesla side)

Tesla absolutely has a huge lead in installed locations- but I've found no evidence at all to support the idea their future building is going at a faster pace as you suggested....with both companies having a history (and Tesla a longer one) of missing promised future install numbers)

 

[SSonnentag]

It appears as though only half of the ports at any given EA charging location can be used at once. There are two ports per charger, but only one is usable at a time. So their "installed" port count is very deceptive.

 

[EVDRVN]

Tesla chose a non-standard adaptor. Looks like no one went with them. I suspect to see Tesla switch to CCS soon in North America also.

Highly unlikely for many reasons.

 

[EVDRVN]

The Tesla Destination chargers can be pushed to block adapters but are not presently this is why a J1772 adapter works presently. The firmware can be updated with no need for onsite connectivity to the destination charger hardware. All SC charging is validated inside the car and all billing is done at the car level not the station level. The car collects the usage and issues the values to Tesla. There are no SC adapters to go from a Tesla SC to another EV only confused individuals that do not understand the charging architecture.

 

[adaptabl]

You sure about the higher future install rate?

Tesla installed 167 supercharger locations in the US in all of 2018 (much lower than they originally predicted, but they badly miss their claimed SC install targets every year)

Electrify America alone shows 120 non-tesla fast charge locations in the US and they only started opening em in July 2018.

That's not my quote.

 

[Rocky_H]

Except, no, you can't do that for the car.

Because there are no CCS or ChaDemo adapters for the Model 3 in the US. (nor any CCS one for the S/X)

Nor can you (legally) plug a non-tesla into a tesla supercharger regardless of cables you bring with you.

Ooooh, you're wanting to limit this to fast charging only? Then we're going to have to go into the weeds on this analogy about what current levels are supported in the official USB 2.0 specifications that most power blocks are built to. (I'll give you a hint: it's not fast charging.)

While those things DO exist for phones, making sharing a charger trivial.

Hence why the analogy I made is 100% accurate.

The majority of those USB wall warts only supply 0.8 amps or 1.0 amps, because that is all that the USB 2.0 spec actually allows, so for the most compatibility and to stick to published specifications, they go with that lowest common denominator. That's why data USB ports that need to be able to read USB flash drives and such give crappy low power charging rates if you try to charge devices from them. Hmm, sounds like the analogy I was giving about how people can plug in various cars with your own equipment if you go to a common but lower powered standard like outlets. Faster charging tends to get more unique and specific.
If you want fast charge with a phone, frequently someone's USB power block on the wall won't support that, (and even a lot of USB cables don't have thick enough wire gauge to support that) and you'd better have brought your own outside-the-spec USB plug as well to support the 2 or more amps for fast charging.

I'm not seeing the 100% accuracy you're talking about.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Ooooh, you're wanting to limit this to fast charging only? Then we're going to have to go into the weeds on this analogy about what current levels are supported in the official USB 2.0 specifications that most power blocks are built to. (I'll give you a hint: it's not fast charging.)

The majority of those USB wall warts only supply 0.8 amps or 1.0 amps, because that is all that the USB 2.0 spec actually allows, so for the most compatibility and to stick to published specifications, they go with that lowest common denominator. That's why data USB ports that need to be able to read USB flash drives and such give crappy low power charging rates if you try to charge devices from them. Hmm, sounds like the analogy I was giving about how people can plug in various cars with your own equipment if you go to a common but lower powered standard like outlets. Faster charging tends to get more unique and specific.
If you want fast charge with a phone, frequently someone's USB power block on the wall won't support that, (and even a lot of USB cables don't have thick enough wire gauge to support that) and you'd better have brought your own outside-the-spec USB plug as well to support the 2 or more amps for fast charging.

I'm not seeing the 100% accuracy you're talking about.

There's one flaw in your analogy. There are now more universal specs (USB BC 1.2 and USB Power Delivery) that now defines a way to more universally charge devices at a higher wattage than the original USB specs. That's why USB chargers and certain USB ports on computers can both charge an iPhone and a Samsung at a higher wattage.

The evolution in USB charging speeds is more akin to the increases in speed we're seeing with CCS and Chademo. Originally they were 50kW, now we're seeing 100kW, 175kW, 350kW. There are differences in the cables (like liquid cooled), but the same applies to USB.

So yes it's not universal universal but it's not as proprietary as you make it out to be.