Supercharger price hikes: what's your opinion?

[John Stuckey]

I don't agree with the way Tesla is increasing the cost for ALL of the superchargers. I agree that they should not be free because people abuse of them however it doesn't make any sense to increase the cost of supercharging like they did in Quebec.

We pay electricity here at 8cents kWh (day or night) and tesla is basically charging 15$ for a 60 kWh charge... especially in winter when the charging is slower and usually unavoidable. I usually charge at 60kWh / hour in winter time. So the cost of electricity for Telsa is 4,80$ for the electricity and yet they charge 15$. Our public charging stations here are, for the most part, much slower but a lot less expensive then supercharging. Tesla could easily charge the equivalent of 8$ for a 60 kWh charge and make 200% profit. They could easily adjust depending on the electricity prices to have something a little more reasonable.

With these changes most new telsa owners will go on the public charging network which will make all other EV owners mad.

"We" is who? Homeowners with a 240V, 200A feed? There is a big difference between the demand charge on a home vs a SC. This applies to all utilities. Try getting a 2" water line run to your house and see what the demand charge would be. And it doesn't matter a bit if you don't use one drop more water; much higher price just for having the capacity is fixed.
Tesla would be smart to publish the rates SCs pay and put a bunch of this chatter to bed.

 

[Zooomer]

Wow. That's terrible efficiency. I didn't realize the P100D was so inefficient. My Model X 90D is around 350wH/mile. Is your regen set on low?

There is barely any regen in 0 deg weather regardless of settings.

Zoomer, I honestly can't think of any car made that would give you 18.5 mpg that would give you the performance you are used to if you indeed are using 600w a mile in your P100D. I agree with your math IF the two were on equal playing fields. If you are using 600w a mile you are driving that thing like a "bat out of hell". I used to get about 27mpg in my BMW AH7 but if I drove it like I drive my S100D (using ~300W a mile) I only got in the 15mpg range.

Don't get me wrong. The Tesla is the best car made. I am not implying in any way that another car has similar performance or I like it as much. I am merely stating that on economy, there is no gas savings in the winter.

In the winter, with a cold battery and vehicle, 600watts is normal. My 75d is ~500 watts/mile in same conditions. It's nearly double its summer consumption if below freezing and snow on the road.
If you charged in NY or CA with .32 supercharger rates, it's somewhat expensive at $20 per 100 miles in fuel consumption. And I know most people charge at home but that's kind of a cop out. The car is sold as cheaper than ICE with no downsides. Well for a road trip, how do you sell that? It costs more per mile than ICE, takes longer to charge, requires 'fueling' more often and goes half the distance? If that's the case, Tesla needs to change the language they use to describe it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[sublimejackman]

Tl;DR - Tesla and owners need to understand supply and demand

I have a Model S with unlimited supercharging. I spent March - Dec of 2018 living in a company apartment with no regular access to wall charging (I have since returned home to my wonderful garage). During that time I had to 100% rely on supercharging and was driving between 50 - 100 miles every week day. Luckily in Dec 2018 a supercharger was put in about 5 miles from the apartment. In March it wasn't so bad, just factor in 30min or so of charging each day (maybe eat or do a Target run). However by the end of the summer, it had become a nightmare. With everyone and their mother receiving their Model 3, it went from a relatively simple process of just pulling in and charging to strategically planning times when the charger wouldn't have a 10 car line. More than once, I took the car back home and took a Lyft or got a ride from a colleague. By the last week of December, with all the holiday traffic, from 10am to 10pm there was a line to charge. That's unacceptable.

People who have home charges and/or don't necessarily need to charge are charging anyway. Price should scale with demand. Not only would this be a way to increase funds to install new chargers, it would act as deterrent. Just think, if you want to go to Target and think "I can charge a bit while I shop" you check your app and it shows that prices are 1.5x or 2x right now. You'd think twice and just charge at home later or go when prices were lower. Thus freeing up the chargers for someone who is running late for a meeting and must charge. Also, you could cut charging prices way down (below what they are now) for people who are willing to charge late at night or early mornings.

As of now, 10s of thousands of new cars released in a few months has strained this infrastructure to the point where people who really need it, sometimes can't use it.

 

[APD1080]

When I purchased my 2016 Model S I was told by EVERY Tesla employee that supercharges would NOT be a profit center but Tesla would only charge to cover their costs (when they started charging to use the superchargers). Included in the cost the car was funds to support the build out of the supercharger network. Charging the customers 200+% of the actual local electrical costs is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Tesla actually purchases electricity cheaper than a home owners as the can get a lower bulk commercial rate. BAD Tesla, BAD, BAD, BAD.

 

[ucmndd]

When I purchased my 2016 Model S I was told by EVERY Tesla employee that supercharges would NOT be a profit center but Tesla would only charge to cover their costs (when they started charging to use the superchargers). Included in the cost the car was funds to support the build out of the supercharger network. Charging the customers 200+% of the actual local electrical costs is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Tesla actually purchases electricity cheaper than a home owners as the can get a lower bulk commercial rate. BAD Tesla, BAD, BAD, BAD.

Do tell us more about your expert insight into the cost of running the supercharger network.

/WonkaMeme

 

[sublimejackman]

When I purchased my 2016 Model S I was told by EVERY Tesla employee that supercharges would NOT be a profit center but Tesla would only charge to cover their costs (when they started charging to use the superchargers). Included in the cost the car was funds to support the build out of the supercharger network. Charging the customers 200+% of the actual local electrical costs is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Tesla actually purchases electricity cheaper than a home owners as the can get a lower bulk commercial rate. BAD Tesla, BAD, BAD, BAD.

How is it a profit center if the money they use is for third generation SC R&D and installation? You think it's cheap to design, install and maintain three phase electrical charging stations used by thousands of people a week? These things cost $10s of thousands a month to operate. That isn't to mention regulatory concerns, leasing the land, grounds keeping, monopoly power companies, etc. It's expensive and extremely complex. Otherwise literally every other car company would have already done it.

 

[Jack007]

First it was free unlimited supercharging (but $2000 or more was included in the price of the car).
Then it became well for distance travel.
Then they had to start putting them in cities because of the apartment dwellers, and charging for the use.
It is only fair that those of us paying for the charging keep getting the charging.
And I'm still paying, for the next 5 years and 2 months left lol.

Here is the unintended consequence for Tesla.
If I am going to be financially responsible, I can NEVER trade my car in.
Granted I shouldn't anyway cuz of depreciation, and because driving for the next 20 years is environmentally responsible instead of buying new cars all the time.
All this said, I charge at home 80+ percent, and hoping to put solar up, though that will only cover half our usage.
(We can only fit about a 3KW system, 10 panels.)

I am tempted to, or perhaps when the refresh of the S comes...
but.... my battery warranty is 8 years unlimited mileage....
I just need to stay happy with the greatest car I have ever drove/rode in.

 

[MlTaylor619]

We have all paid for it. About 2k of the purchase price was factored in to support superchargers

Good point. Kind of like double taxation....except we did not get to vote on it. Of course, buying a Tesla is a 'vote'. Still, changing the rules after the vote? I think it is called finances by the seat of one's pants.

 

[boonedocks]

There is barely any regen in 0 deg weather regardless of settings.


Don't get me wrong. The Tesla is the best car made. I am not implying in any way that another car has similar performance or I like it as much. I am merely stating that on economy, there is no gas savings in the winter.

In the winter, with a cold battery and vehicle, 600watts is normal. My 75d is ~500 watts/mile in same conditions. It's nearly double its summer consumption if below freezing and snow on the road.
If you charged in NY or CA with .32 supercharger rates, it's somewhat expensive at $20 per 100 miles in fuel consumption. And I know most people charge at home but that's kind of a cop out. The car is sold as cheaper than ICE with no downsides. Well for a road trip, how do you sell that? It costs more per mile than ICE, takes longer to charge, requires 'fueling' more often and goes half the distance? If that's the case, Tesla needs to change the language they use to describe it. That's all I'm saying.

I was just giving you a hard time about the 600w a mile. I have never experienced anything over 500w a mile except when I drove to the exit of my neighborhood and turned around and went back home LOL.

Coming from someone who DOES have FUSC for life on two Tesla's, if I didn't have 240V 80amp home charging with my 100+ mile a day commute and my car being the defacto weekend family car I would not have a Tesla. Free or not there is NO way I would rely on Supercharging as my way of owning a Tesla. The cost is not in the $$ it is definitely in the time. Plugging in and charging my car between 2:00 am and 5:00 am is no different to me than plugging my cell phone or iPad in before going to bed. I wouldn't own either of those if I had to go sit somewhere up to an hour a day waiting for them to charge.

 

[dgpcolorado]

... Charging the customers 200+% of the actual local electrical costs is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Tesla actually purchases electricity cheaper than a home owners as the can get a lower bulk commercial rate. BAD Tesla, BAD, BAD, BAD.

No, that's not necessarily how it works. As others have said, repeatedly, upthread, commercial rates generally include both a base rate, which is usually lower than the residential rate, and a demand charge that can be very high for customers that have large spikes in usage. A typical demand charge — they can vary in how they are implemented — is based on the highest kW* pulled in a fifteen minute period for the month. It can be much higher than the base rate for electricity. A full Supercharger Station can pull a lot of kW and the demand charge is based on that highest fifteen minutes for the whole month.

Just assuming that commercial customers, such as Tesla, get a cheaper rate for electricity than residential customers is not accurate. It may depend on the demand charge structure.

* That's kW (power), not kWh (energy).

 

[Naekuh]

There is barely any regen in 0 deg weather regardless of settings.


Don't get me wrong. The Tesla is the best car made. I am not implying in any way that another car has similar performance or I like it as much. I am merely stating that on economy, there is no gas savings in the winter.

In the winter, with a cold battery and vehicle, 600watts is normal.

that is beyond ridiculous....
I cant say if its because you have a iron foot or not (which im guessing more), or maybe your enjoying ludicrous mode a bit too much.

But i can speak as a P100D owner..

On FWY : I net right about 375-425.
On Local: I get about 450-475
On a Stupid M3 trying to test his car: i will pull 600 (iron foot mode)
With Heaters Blasting, my full cold weather heating options on all 5 seats + steering wheel, i might get 600W. Actually i probably would get 600W but i refuse to believe that its 0 degree's all the time in Mi.

Now if you said your in norway like Bjorn... then i might believe you, but even then he doesnt pull that high.
So im going back to your enjoying your ludicrous mode a bit too much.

I have never experienced anything over 500w a mile except when I drove to the exit of my neighborhood and turned around and went back home LOL.

0-60 in 2.3sec will easily do 500+ and its extremely enjoyable unless a cop is up ahead.
Unless you have a weak heart, once u tasted it, you really cant go back.
Infact my friends 100D feels SLOW when i am forced to drive her car.

And having my car in chrome delete seems to make more M3 owners test there car's on me even more.

 

[islandchick]

I actually brought this up to the sales people who have called me, they insist the supercharging network was never intended to be a profit center. And the M3 was supposed to be $35k before tax rebates. rofl
I seem to recall the Superchargers were going to be built to be self sustaining, making their own power from solar.
Whatever, seems to me Tesla is just like everything else, there are people who have grown weary of smoke being blown up their asses and fanboys who see no problem. Nothing in the middle. We have been divided AND conquered and we are all still on our high horses.

 

[Naekuh]

I actually brought this up to the sales people who have called me, they insist the supercharging network was never intended to be a profit center. And the M3 was supposed to be $35k before tax rebates.

and my autopilot was supposed to be like a valet to pick me up from its parking spot to where i was.
And it was supposed to drive all by itself, all i needed to do was sit in the car, let the car go though my calendar, and just hit Go.

But this is Elon were talking about.

I think he was a little bit high on weed when he thought these things would be possible that quickly.

 

[Fully Charged]

False trichotomy. I just bought my Model 3 a month ago, and just got my wall connector charger installed this week. I have been getting free supercharging through a friend's referral code, and will get another five months of free supercharging (assuming Tesla honors preexisting referrals). I have charged at supercharger stations four or five times before my home charger was set up, and have only charged at home once so far. I'll probably only use supercharging stations occasionally when on long road trips or if I happen to be low on charge and near one of the stations in my area. I don't mind the price increase, but obviously would have no problem with it being lower. I realize that I'm not an early adopter, and incentives like lifelong free supercharging are designed to reward early adopters, so I am somewhat indifferent about the price increase.

 

[TMeister]

...Tesla and owners need to understand supply and demand... and...
Price should scale with demand...

Exactly. This is just simply economics. It's just like Uber dynamic pricing and HOV pricing.

And on the other content about ICE vs. EV energy costs... As soon as Electrify America gets enough infrastructure in place they will set the pricing for DC fast charging. Then SuC pricing will track. It's pretty close already although EA measures in time and a connect charge vs Tesla just on energy. It will no longer be the competitive advantage for Tesla it once was.

 

[islandchick]

Supply and Demand is no longer a Law of economics, as there are no truly free markets. And even pretending for one second that Tesla has relation to either is ludicrous.

 

[hohensee]

What is the source of that claim?

It's pretty obvious that the cost/car or the SC network depends upon the volume of production as well as whether you got free SC'ing or not. Since Tesla has been ramping production upwards faster than the SC network buildout, the cost/car has been falling.

The supercharger network is huge and the vast majority of SC'ers are still barely utilized but they still need to be there for the network to be effective. So the cost of increasing SC network capacity is not proportional to the increase in Tesla sales. It's less.

You may recall Elon was offering $5k in return to those who bought early versions of the M3 Performance if they were willing to give back the free lifetime Supercharging that came with the car. What does that tell you about the value?

 

[Dan’l]

Somehow, I think this string has more to do with cheap gas prices right now, than the cost of paying for supercharging. As soon as gas prices go up again, all Tesla owners will be smiling as they drive past gas stations.

I have free supercharging for life. I bought my 100D with that understanding knowing that it was a promotional offer that would necessarily end just like the 7500.00 tax deduction. Both were material factors in my purchase decision and timing. But, most of my charging is done at home at night, at .10/ kWh.
Tesla will not take free supercharging away from the relatively few people in my class because to do so would be a horrible customer relations decision and bring forth a class action suit in California where class actions are quite common relative to other states. (I’m also an attorney licensed in Texas and Washington State with 25 years of litigation and appellate law experience.)

 

[StealthP3D]

You may recall Elon was offering $5k in return to those who bought early versions of the M3 Performance if they were willing to give back the free lifetime Supercharging that came with the car. What does that tell you about the value?

Absolutely nothing.

In any case, my comments were not addressing the value of free SC'ing, they were speaking to the costs of building and maintaining the SC network. I was simply noting that the more cars Tesla produces, the more cars they are able to spread the fixed costs (over more cars).

I was also noting that the SC network cost does not rise in proportion to the number of cars sold. For example, even with only 1 Tesla in the US, the network would still need around 500 SC stations to achieve adequate coverage. The fact that most SC stations are utilized at less than 1/8th capacity means that the cost of upgrading the SC network to deal with additional cars, does not rise proportionally with the number of cars.

 

[ucmndd]

Somehow, I think this string has more to do with cheap gas prices right now, than the cost of paying for supercharging. As soon as gas prices go up again, all Tesla owners will be smiling as they drive past gas stations.

I have free supercharging for life. I bought my 100D with that understanding knowing that it was a promotional offer that would necessarily end just like the 7500.00 tax deduction. Both were material factors in my purchase decision and timing. But, most of my charging is done at home at night, at .10/ kWh.
Tesla will not take free supercharging away from the relatively few people in my class because to do so would be a horrible customer relations decision and bring forth a class action suit in California where class actions are quite common relative to other states. (I’m also an attorney licensed in Texas and Washington State with 25 years of litigation and appellate law experience.)

I can't see any situation* where Tesla strips current holders of free supercharging of that perk, for all of the reasons you lay out above and more. It's just not practical. PR nightmare.


* I guess I should amend that to say there's certainly one way, as part of a Chapter 11 filing. But let's hope it never comes to that.