Supercharger Price Increase

[Daniel in SD]

Residential and commercial electricity are billed differently. A huge part of a commercial bill is "demand charges" which is the maximum usage over a 15 minute period. Tesla may be getting killed by that.
IMHO supercharging should always be more expensive than charging at home otherwise the supercharging stations get clogged up with cheapskates.

 

[Insight75]

[QUOTE="IMHO supercharging should always be more expensive than charging at home otherwise the supercharging stations get clogged up with cheapskates.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this. We have to keep the superchargers as intended. Long range travel. Does Tesla pay for the real estate as well?

 

[PRSIST]

I've never been naive enough to believe that Tesla wasn't, at some point, going to attempt to recoup the construction costs of their multi-million dollar supercharger network. Lots of Model S and X owners have and still do abuse the superchargers, which will cost everyone more in the long run. There are a lot of reasons to buy and drive a BEV, but mine has never been to save money on gas. It was to eliminate gas.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I completely agree with this. We have to keep the superchargers as intended. Long range travel. Does Tesla pay for the real estate as well?

No. As I understand it they install them for free but reasonably sell them as a business booster for the property owner.
There are some Model S owners that use superchargers to save money. Time is money people!

 

[MXWing]

I've never been naive enough to believe that Tesla wasn't, at some point, going to attempt to recoup the construction costs of their multi-million dollar supercharger network. Lots of Model S and X owners have and still do abuse the superchargers, which will cost everyone more in the long run. There are a lot of reasons to buy and drive a BEV, but mine has never been to save money on gas. It was to eliminate gas.

Other than somehow 1 or 2 people -

how does one save on gas with a $100,000 car?

 

[Sandiegodoug]

They need to factor in cost of electricity for the Model S and X. Currently they are free to use Superchargers. They have to start making this up. My Model 3 will likely never go on a road trip. My Model X will for sure.

Absolutely agree
The x is much more comfortable.

 

[Trips]

If you don't like the higher rates here is an application for Tesla to install a charger at your work.

Charging Partners | Tesla

 

[cwerdna]

Residential and commercial electricity are billed differently. A huge part of a commercial bill is "demand charges" which is the maximum usage over a 15 minute period. Tesla may be getting killed by that.

Indeed. Demand charges can be killer.

I posted a pointer to a report at Rocky Mountain Institute and Evgo fleet and tariff analysis (relates to DC FCing) - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Excerpt of press release at http://blog.rmi.org/Content/Files/eLab_EVgo_Fleet_and_Tariff_Analysis_2017.pdf

RMI’s study found that, under certain electricity tariffs, current demand charges can make up as much
as 90 percent of the monthly bill of operational public DC fast chargers, driving the cost of delivered
electricity as high as $1.96 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) during summer months in some locations. These
charges are nearly seven times as high as the current gasoline equivalent cost of $0.29/kWh, meaning it
is difficult for DC Fast charging providers like EVgo to remain competitive with the costs of operating
petroleum-fueled vehicles.

New Supercharger Fair Use Policy has a pointer to a nice tutorial about demand charges.

 

[S'toon]

How are they charging in the US? In Canada they're charging by the minute. Considering it could take over an hour to charge to full, that could get expensive.

eg:
Saskatchewan
$0.34 per minute above 60 kW
$0.17 per minute at or below 60 kW

Note, there are no actual Superchargers in SK. I'd be shocked if they actually build any this year. Tesla's "coming this year" maps have been ludicrously off.

 

[goto10]

How are they charging in the US? In Canada they're charging by the minute. Considering it could take over an hour to charge to full, that could get expensive.

eg:
Saskatchewan
$0.34 per minute above 60 kW
$0.17 per minute at or below 60 kW

It depends on the state. Where they are permitted to charge per kWh they do and, before this change, it seemed similar to residential rates. In states where they are not permitted to bill by energy consumed because of utility company regulations they bill by the minute in two tiers like they do in Canada.

 

[Cnasty]

Right in the middle of a 2500+ mile road trip in my Model 3.

Bastards

 

[Dave EV]

Indeed. Demand charges can be killer.

For SDG&E, AL-TOU rates are ~$37/kW in the summer during peak periods if I'm reading the rate schedule right (would actually love to see someone explain an actual bill on this schedule).

http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_AL-TOU.pdf

That means that each pair of Supercharger stalls costs about $5k/mo just in demand charges. The San Diego Supercharger with 12 stalls, will cost ~$30k/mo and that does not include energy costs assuming that all stalls fill up on any given month.

This is on top of any energy charges - in the ballpark of 8-14c / kWh, I believe.

Now it comes down to how many kWh the site serves - if Tesla wishes to break even just on the utility charges on a site like this charging $0.26 / kWh, they would have to deliver over 214 MWh / month. This would be an average of 300 kW charging 24/7, or 3-5 cars constantly charging depending on their state of charge. And we still haven't added on the cost of installation or maintenance of the Supercharger site, too.

On an overloaded site like San Diego where there are often long lines - they probably can do this without too much trouble. But long lines to charge don't provide a good user-experience, so it's in Tesla's best interest to install more stations.

Tesla is going to need a lot of batteries at each Supercharger site to offset these demand charges. I'm really surprised that Tesla isn't installing at least a few Powerpacks at each site, if nothing else but to use them as R&D in the field, but I suspect that they'd rather sell all the Powerpacks they can make instead - it probably makes them more money that way.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Funny. That's the same B.S. Tesla spouted about its service centers not being a "profit center." Tesla's annual maintenance inspection now costs more than on ANY of my ICE vehicles.

Look at prices of other DC charging networks (with even slower charging and smaller stations). Supercharging was underpriced (and still is compared to those networks). It should never be the same as residential electricity, but should be sufficiently higher to discourage unnecessary use.

I bet even with these rates, the supercharger network is still a money loser (subsidized by Tesla vehicle sales as previously).

 

[MXWing]

I have unlimited charging and would vote for not being able to use SC "for free" within a X radius where my vehicle is parked Y % of the time.

On an overloaded site like San Diego where there are often long lines

Are those locals? I am going to guess so.

 

[TaoJones]

Amazing how some people still parrot the completely discredited notion that supercharging is for long distance travel only.

Meanwhile, my interest just went way up to configure a Tesla Semi (upgraded pack) and accompanying 53' trailer as an RV. Guaranteed $0.07/kW charging on the road or when at destinations just got significantly more valuable.

I don't know how many people have driven by Dockweiler Beach in the Los Angeles area recently, but the adjacent parking is wall to wall bus-sized RVs - and more than a few of those RVs sold for $500,000 and up.

Now, even matching that $500K figure with the aforementioned Semi and 53' trailer is sensible given the fuel savings over time alone.

The irony here is that also at $500K, said customized Tesla RV based solely upon square footage (400 sf in round numbers) is also a bargain in Los Angeles' superheated real estate market. Try getting an ocean view for $500K for anything with a roof and a bathroom in Los Angeles County. G'head - try.

One does wonder at what point Semi SC stations will be funded by the large trucking companies - they won't be available to we mere mortals probably - see today's cardpass commercial fuel stops for over the road truckers. Nonetheless, it's an exciting time and the rates for charging commercially are *already* attractive.

 

[cwerdna]

Meanwhile, my interest just went way up to configure a Tesla Semi (upgraded pack) and accompanying 53' trailer as an RV. Guaranteed $0.07/kW charging on the road or when at destinations just got significantly more valuable.

Proper units here are kWh. kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

If one charges at 1 kW (or 1000 watts) for 6 hours, 6 kWh came out of the wall. If it's at 6 kW for 1 hour, it's also 6 kWh. If it's 1 watt for 6000 hours, it's also 6 kWh.

Watts or kilowatts are measure of power. Watt-hours are a measure of energy.

One pays for electricity at home in cents per kWh. There are a few utilities w/residential plans where they not only bill per kWh but also have demand charges, but that's rare and complicates calculations. (Demand charges aren't unusual on many commercial plans.)

(BTW, 1 hp = ~0.746 kW. And, many .gov sites say 1 gallon of gasoline=33.7 kWh.)

And, the topic of demand charges did come up. Those ARE per kW. See post #32 and my pointer in post #28.

 

[FlatSix911]

What is this Supercharging fee that you speak of?

 

[dhanson865]

Prices: Supercharging

and the archived prices Supercharging https://web.archive.org/web/20180201045829/https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

 

[TaoJones]

Proper units here are kWh. kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

If one charges at 1 kW (or 1000 watts) for 6 hours, 6 kWh came out of the wall. If it's at 6 kW for 1 hour, it's also 6 kWh. If it's 1 watt for 6000 hours, it's also 6 kWh.

Watts or kilowatts are measure of power. Watt-hours are a measure of energy.

One pays for electricity at home in cents per kWh. There are a few utilities w/residential plans where they not only bill per kWh but also have demand charges, but that's rare and complicates calculations. (Demand charges aren't unusual on many commercial plans.)

(BTW, 1 hp = ~0.746 kW. And, many .gov sites say 1 gallon of gasoline=33.7 kWh.)

And, the topic of demand charges did come up. Those ARE per kW. See post #32 and my pointer in post #28.

Thanks for the helpful coverage and pointers. While I am indeed aware of the difference tweenst kW and kWh, I surely didn’t make that evident in my post.

Demand charges can be evil. I am reminded of a local utility in Vermont that applied a threshold to usage, that when exceeded just one time in a given month, resulted in penalty charges for the ensuing year. To accomplish this they put demand meters adjacent existing meters on every house in town. Needless to say, this did not go over well.

 

[PRSIST]

Amazing how some people still parrot the completely discredited notion that supercharging is for long distance travel only.

Really??? Parrot??? The supercharging network was built for traveling. PERIOD. Go back and do your research and either listen to or read what Elon said about the topic. Then come back with another cut about people speaking truth.