We've had our S for about 7 months now. Only twice have we had to visit a Supercharger. The first time was free which was nice. Today we had to stop at a Supercharger due to the length of our trip (of course!) The price was 42 cents/kWh! Three and a half times what we pay to charge at home!! Really? Tesla builds the Supercharger, keeps it functioning and pays to lease or purchase the space and over the lifetime of the Supercharger it gets used thousands of times. No employee has to be present at any time except for the above mentioned repairs. Even the billing is automatic. Makes me wish I could find a business where I could charge a 250% mark up with so little overhead. One reason Elon didn't mention when discussing his reasoning for not making a major push for longer range in his vehicles, his profits from the Superchargers.
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Supercharger Shock!
- Thread starter Beasts
- Start date
Um... no.
Commercial rates are not what you pay at home.
All that equipment needs to be maintained (and gets broken, etc)
There is a ton of equipment there, so "so little overhead" is not correct.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Yes.
The cost of distributing and delivering electricity at commercial scale, megawatts at a time, has almost nothing to do with what it costs to provide power to your individual home. Demand charges can vastly increase the per kWh cost charged by the utility compared to a typical residence.
An example you might find useful - call your water company and ask them what it would cost to replace your house’s 1” water main with a 4” water main, and how much they’ll charge you per month for the privilege.
EdgeM3LR
Member
Utility guy here, yes it is more expensive to demand and consume MWhs than the trickle kWhs your house could demand and consume. Utility bills at a commercial site have both demand charges (maximum power needed to support your needs over a 5 min period typically) and usage charges (how much energy you consume kWhs or MWh). This is why many new charging stations are starting to add batteries, not for backup but to reduce the demand charges from the utility.
Think about it if there are 10 Gen V2 that is 1500 kW total demand possible plus any slight overhead for a factor of safety, I think 20% so ballpark 1800 kW (not an EE so not sure what they use). Now turn that into a full hour of charging at a full station and you have just used 1500 kWh of energy. So you have to pay for the demand of 1800 kW and the usage of 1500 kWh. Commercial usage rates are typically cheaper than residential, 20-40%, the demand charge makes up for this of course.
Finally, I am sure you have heard of the vandalism or stealing of the charging cords, that cost has to go somewhere Tesla is a business, not a charity.
You are still paying less or equivalent to a highly efficient car at today's gas prices.
Think about it if there are 10 Gen V2 that is 1500 kW total demand possible plus any slight overhead for a factor of safety, I think 20% so ballpark 1800 kW (not an EE so not sure what they use). Now turn that into a full hour of charging at a full station and you have just used 1500 kWh of energy. So you have to pay for the demand of 1800 kW and the usage of 1500 kWh. Commercial usage rates are typically cheaper than residential, 20-40%, the demand charge makes up for this of course.
Finally, I am sure you have heard of the vandalism or stealing of the charging cords, that cost has to go somewhere Tesla is a business, not a charity.
You are still paying less or equivalent to a highly efficient car at today's gas prices.
My thanks to all of you for your feed back. The magnitude of the price difference still...concerns me...but I am definitely feeling even better about being able to do most of our charging at home. And I feel for those who, for whatever reason including renting their home, can't install a 220 V system where they live. Yes, they are still ahead of any ICE car but that advantage is seriously eroded. And I have to remember that it will be some time before we can spread the cost of our home charging system across sufficient kW hours to make that expenditure less significant.
Thanks again for all of the information.
Thanks again for all of the information.
terrywhite
Member
Not to mention the upfront cost of building the station. It wasn't free and costs 10's of thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to build. That money has to be recouped before there is a single cent of profit.
Those rates are a little less than 3x what I will be paying at home in my next contract. I’m not surprised.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
It's my understanding that commercial power delivery has a variety of prices depending on time of use and if it is guaranteed, important, or if you sign up for being a the head of the load shedding queue.
I can tell a story that a well located and developed site can have very low utility costs through trickery including arbitrage, inexpensive rate plans due to placement in the utility priority queue and time of use allowances, and batteries.
I can also tell a story about robotaxies providing 80% of mobility in hong kong in 2019.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
This price was advertised in 2017, 5 years worth of inflation makes me 100% sure that 7 cents per kWh is not going to happen.
Kind of frustrating to get "thumbs down" from 2 individuals (Rocky_H and MountainRatMat) without any explanation - and after my thanking people for their feedback. It would be helpful to know what the reason was for their negative opinion of my post. Simply saying you disagree with something without an explanation helps no one. I would very much like to hear what your disagreement is so that I can reconsider my position. Being open to criticism is how we grow after all.
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AMPd
Well-Known Member
Probably has to do with your incorrect comparison between commercial and residential power rates.
Or the costs of keeping the SC location operating besides energy costs.
E90alex
Active Member
The costs of installation per cabinet is probably about $100k for the latest v3 chargers. Tesla doesn’t publish the cost but the cost for competing CCS DCFC stations is well north of $100k each.
Let’s say the cost of electricity Tesla pays is $0.11/kWh like your house (which it isn’t) and they are marking up $0.33 and charging $0.44. And let’s assume each car charges 80kWh every time it’s plugged in. It would need to average over 10 car charges a day *per cabinet* for a year to recoup that $100k. Depending on location, the sites may sit mostly empty most of the week so it would take over a year for Tesla to recoup the installation costs.
But as already said, electricity service for fast charge stations is a lot more than your home service. Plus ongoing maintenance and repair costs, site leases, internet fees, etc so they’re not simply just marking up electricity exorbitant amounts to rake in profits and rip you off.
Charging at home is always going to be the cheapest option. A Supercharger is meant for convenience, and as for anything you have to pay for more convenience.
Let’s say the cost of electricity Tesla pays is $0.11/kWh like your house (which it isn’t) and they are marking up $0.33 and charging $0.44. And let’s assume each car charges 80kWh every time it’s plugged in. It would need to average over 10 car charges a day *per cabinet* for a year to recoup that $100k. Depending on location, the sites may sit mostly empty most of the week so it would take over a year for Tesla to recoup the installation costs.
But as already said, electricity service for fast charge stations is a lot more than your home service. Plus ongoing maintenance and repair costs, site leases, internet fees, etc so they’re not simply just marking up electricity exorbitant amounts to rake in profits and rip you off.
Charging at home is always going to be the cheapest option. A Supercharger is meant for convenience, and as for anything you have to pay for more convenience.
AMPd
Well-Known Member
Just like with ICE cars, home made gasoline will always be cheaper than at a gas station because of all the extra costs involved.
The more information you all provide the better understanding I have regarding the price structure and the better appreciation I'm getting for the otherwise apparently "massive" markup. Again, I thank you! Knowledge is a very good, and powerful, possession.
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Wait a sec - commercial rates are not necessarily (and in my experience not usally) more than residential rates.
In my experience they have demand charges but then lower rates.
So maybe $10 a month per kw peak - so up to $2000 per charger station but then $.05 per kwh. (I have paid $5 demand so I am being generous here).
So with the theoretical 10 sessions per day, you need to recoup about $7 per session (for demand only) to break even in a month. This would not apply unless at some point in the month every station was pulling peaks - which for the less busy ones probably isn't true.
And since when is payback in 1 year a bad thing? Obviously it depends on interest rates and maintenance costs, but for something like this, a 7-10 year payback would be just fine with factoring those in.
I suppose though, a tech company mindset would think that 10 years is an eternity but we are talking cars which is a durable good. I would think that sometimes you need to think like a car company and not a tech company because of that. Maybe not Tesla's strong suit.
And forget any comparison to gas. One of the practical benefits of electricity is that it is easy (and cheap).
And the other complaint is the change in price with no change in cost. Electricity is a regulated monopoly and for the most part has mostly fixed costs and so little ability to quickly charge rate payers more. Over time - absolutely. Small fees for excess fuel costs - sure. But mostly slow to react.
In my experience they have demand charges but then lower rates.
So maybe $10 a month per kw peak - so up to $2000 per charger station but then $.05 per kwh. (I have paid $5 demand so I am being generous here).
So with the theoretical 10 sessions per day, you need to recoup about $7 per session (for demand only) to break even in a month. This would not apply unless at some point in the month every station was pulling peaks - which for the less busy ones probably isn't true.
And since when is payback in 1 year a bad thing? Obviously it depends on interest rates and maintenance costs, but for something like this, a 7-10 year payback would be just fine with factoring those in.
I suppose though, a tech company mindset would think that 10 years is an eternity but we are talking cars which is a durable good. I would think that sometimes you need to think like a car company and not a tech company because of that. Maybe not Tesla's strong suit.
And forget any comparison to gas. One of the practical benefits of electricity is that it is easy (and cheap).
And the other complaint is the change in price with no change in cost. Electricity is a regulated monopoly and for the most part has mostly fixed costs and so little ability to quickly charge rate payers more. Over time - absolutely. Small fees for excess fuel costs - sure. But mostly slow to react.
Charlotte-NC
Member
Watts_Up, Seriously, 42 cents/kWh?!? There are some good things about living in Ohio after all. We do love our home in Ohio but when we first moved here we were amazed at how many born and raised in Ohio folks asked us why we had moved to Ohio from Colorado. It was quite a shock at first but we've adapted. I can also see why solar roofs are more popular in California - besides the extra sunlight.
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