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Supercharger [should] Require Adapter from Tesla Plug to CCS Plug?

It looks like some future superchargers will have two cables—one for Teslas and one for CCS-equipped cars.

Screen Shot 2022-07-24 at 10.00.03 AM.jpg

I wonder whether anyone considered requiring that instead, non-Tesla cars use an adapter? For example, a Rivian owner buys an adapter, pulls up to a supercharger, plugs the Tesla plug into the adapter, and the adapter into the car.

To be clear, this isn't the CCS to Tesla adapter that I'm talking about. It's a Tesla to CCS adapter (which apparently doesn't exist).

Not saying this would be best, just bringing it up.
 
Actually I would expect the transition to CCS on future Teslas, as they are already doing in the EU and elsewhere.

However, the primary reason here is Tesla taking advantage of federal funding related to equipping superchargers in this way. But with them having committed to tripling their infrastructure it probably works to everyone’s advantage.
 
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Yes, Tesla did.

Interesting! I was thinking that maybe there could be an adapter that is locked to the supercharger with a cable. Sounds like this is a variation of that.

It's true than humans seem to be incapable of dealing well with standards--I could give a thousand examples.
 

moa999

2020 3 SR+ MSM
Mar 4, 2020
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Sydney, AUS
It looks like some future superchargers will have two cables—one for Teslas and one for CCS-equipped cars.
That's an international (Europe/UK/HK/Australia) V2 Supercharger.

They have two plugs.
Top one - shown - a CCS2 plug, with only the ground/earth and communication and proximity pins. Used for Model 3/Y, and now for many non-Teslas.
Bottom one is a modified Type2 plug with an extra keys that only work with legacy international S/X.

V3 superchargers in those regions just have the CCS2 plug, and legacy S/X have to use an adapter.
 
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srs5694

Active Member
Jan 15, 2019
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It looks like some future superchargers will have two cables—one for Teslas and one for CCS-equipped cars.

View attachment 832308
Note that the above photo is of a European Supercharger; the plug being held is a CCS2 plug. In North America, CCS1 is the standard. Thus, this is not a pre-release photo of anything we'll see in North America, although it could conceivably be similar, if the report shared by @MLXXXp is inaccurate.

Some time ago, I ran across a vaguer reference to the "Magic Dock" idea described in the article that @MLXXXp shared; however, that earlier description made it sound like the charging handle would have two plugs permanently attached, like the hammer and claw parts of a hammer. This new description sounds a bit different, and more adapter-like. As @3Volts2aTes says, the US Federal funding for DC fast chargers includes a requirement that stations support CCS, so if Tesla wants in on those funds, they won't be able to do it by deploying Superchargers with Tesla-only plugs and then selling adapters. The Magic Dock idea might work to get those funds, and it would probably be fairly easy to retrofit existing Superchargers, but of course it's bureaucrats and judges who'd make the ultimate determination of what qualifies. If Tesla is seriously pursuing the Magic Dock solution, then I expect they think it'll be OK. A dual-cable Supercharger, similar to what Tesla has already deployed in Europe but with CCS1 and Tesla cables, would also be OK -- or at least, my non-lawyer reading of the relevant regulations, suggests it'd be fine.
 
Exactly. CCS is the standard.

Only in the US can they get away with the proprietary connector BS. And clearly the tide is turning here as well.

The only real issue is why the "CCS" in north America is not CCS2. Its a cleaner design for AC only operation, feels like the Tesla connector. Also allows commercial electrical installations to provide 3 phase charging. Would be a standard world wide. The Type 2 connector has had to be implemeted in the US for large vehicles AC charging already using the standard J3068. Wiki J3068
 

bradtem

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Dec 18, 2018
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Exactly. CCS is the standard.

Only in the US can they get away with the proprietary connector BS. And clearly the tide is turning here as well.
You can say "CCS is the standard." And CHAdeMO is another standard. But what does that mean?
75% of the EVs sold in the USA use the Tesla connector. A smaller fraction (about 20,000/year) use CHAdeMO. The rest use CCS. It is a collection of different manufacturers and so if that's your definition of standard, then it's a standard (not the standard.) However, to many to be the standard you have to also be the most common type, and that's the Tesla connector.

Even today the wise thing would be for Tesla to get rid of its restrictions on their connector, and for new cars to use that connector and new 3rd party stations to use it too, and to release some adapters for the old cars. The number of CCS cars sold so far in the USA is very tiny compared to the number of EVs that will be sold in just the next 2 years. It's just not that large an installed base. When you consider the Tesla connector's smaller size, and high capacity, particularly if upgraded to 800v, it's the right choice going forward.

Indeed, a suitable option would be to start with Tesla stations that talk the CCS protocol. Tesla already makes these. And this would mean for existing CCS stations, you just need a dumb adapter or a new cable on those stations. Later you can upgrade to have them talk the Tesla protocols if needed. Standards are useful in hardware but not really needed in networking protocols. It's easy to talk both.

Tesla got it right almost a decade ago. A sleek, compact connector with positive locking, support for both AC and DC, and a seamless plug and charge protocol years before the "standard" figured that out even though shown the way. That CCS and CdM were designed so badly after the Tesla connector was in wide use shows you why you don't want to let those folks define the standard.
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
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Sunnyvale, CA
The only real issue is why the "CCS" in north America is not CCS2. Its a cleaner design for AC only operation, feels like the Tesla connector. Also allows commercial electrical installations to provide 3 phase charging. Would be a standard world wide. The Type 2 connector has had to be implemeted in the US for large vehicles AC charging already using the standard J3068. Wiki J3068
Supporting 3 phase makes your connector bigger, and your internal charger has to be ready to work with 3-phase even if it's rarely found in homes. Tesla connectors are often found with 20kw of single phase AC, above that it's time to look at DC and most cars can't even take that much AC.

In other words, it's not clear to me that type 2 (and CCS based on it) is superior to Tesla connector, which is one single, smaller connector able to do 20kw AC and 250kw DC at 400v, more if it put it to 800v.

What is it that makes type 2 superior? CCS2 is much larger than Tesla connector, and plug to charge on it still rare. Of course Tesla switched but because the law demanded it, not because it was a superior connector. I prefer connectors designed by engineers in response to customers, not mandated by government officials.
 
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You can say "CCS is the standard." And CHAdeMO is another standard. But what does that mean?
75% of the EVs sold in the USA use the Tesla connector. A smaller fraction (about 20,000/year) use CHAdeMO. The rest use CCS. It is a collection of different manufacturers and so if that's your definition of standard, then it's a standard (not the standard.) However, to many to be the standard you have to also be the most common type, and that's the Tesla connector.

Even today the wise thing would be for Tesla to get rid of its restrictions on their connector, and for new cars to use that connector and new 3rd party stations to use it too, and to release some adapters for the old cars. The number of CCS cars sold so far in the USA is very tiny compared to the number of EVs that will be sold in just the next 2 years. It's just not that large an installed base. When you consider the Tesla connector's smaller size, and high capacity, particularly if upgraded to 800v, it's the right choice going forward.

Indeed, a suitable option would be to start with Tesla stations that talk the CCS protocol. Tesla already makes these. And this would mean for existing CCS stations, you just need a dumb adapter or a new cable on those stations. Later you can upgrade to have them talk the Tesla protocols if needed. Standards are useful in hardware but not really needed in networking protocols. It's easy to talk both.

Tesla got it right almost a decade ago. A sleek, compact connector with positive locking, support for both AC and DC, and a seamless plug and charge protocol years before the "standard" figured that out even though shown the way. That CCS and CdM were designed so badly after the Tesla connector was in wide use shows you why you don't want to let those folks define the standard.
CCS is compatible CCS vehicles

CCS is also compatible with Tesla vehicles using the CCS adapter

That just leaves CHAdeMO vehicles and EVs that can't fast charge.

CCS is, therefore, compatible with most EVs
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
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Sunnyvale, CA
CCS is compatible CCS vehicles

CCS is also compatible with Tesla vehicles using the CCS adapter

That just leaves CHAdeMO vehicles and EVs that can't fast charge.

CCS is, therefore, compatible with most EVs
No, but it will be. Once Tesla releases the CCS adapter and also releases an easy upgrade kit for older Teslas, then CCS will be compatible with most EVs. Today, it is compatible with 25% of EVs in the USA or less.

It would be easier to make Tesla compatible with 100% of EVs though the use of a reverse adapter. Much easier, as only 25% of EVs would need to buy the adapter. Tesla superchargers have supported CCS data protocols for years and all the ones in Europe use them. Instead of getting 75% of cars (Teslas) to buy an adapter, and for a large fraction of them to need a controller upgrade installed, does it not make a lot more sense to have 25% of cars get an adapter instead?

Or even easier, just start putting those adapters at Tesla superchargers so the small number of CCS cars don't even have to buy them?

Both of these are plans for a future. But one would cost a great deal less and is easier to do.
 
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It would be easier to make Tesla compatible with 100% of EVs though the use of a reverse adapter. Much easier, as only 25% of EVs would need to buy the adapter. Tesla superchargers have supported CCS data protocols for years and all the ones in Europe use them. Instead of getting 75% of cars (Teslas) to buy an adapter, and for a large fraction of them to need a controller upgrade installed, does it not make a lot more sense to have 25% of cars get an adapter instead?

Or even easier, just start putting those adapters at Tesla superchargers so the small number of CCS cars don't even have to buy them?

Both of these are plans for a future. But one would cost a great deal less and is easier to do.
Tesla drivers need to buy the CCS adapter anyway to be able to charge elsewhere other than the Supercharger.
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,064
Sunnyvale, CA
Tesla drivers need to buy the CCS adapter anyway to be able to charge elsewhere other than the Supercharger.
Not if there were a decision, as being discussed, for the world to switch to using the most popular connector, the Tesla one, which is also the best from an engineering standpoint. In that case, the DC fast stations out there would start stocking CCS to Tesla adapters on a retractable cord (a few already stock CHAdeMO to Tesla adapters because they were officially for sale.) And eventually just put Tesla cords on them because that is the most common kind of car.

If you were going to pick which connector to use, and one connector is in use on 75% of cars, most fast charging stalls, and is better designed, smaller and more capable, would there even be a debate?

The only reason for a debate is because Tesla still holds on to just releasing the connector licence free. They put out a "use our patents free" licence which is not actually free, and as such, people don't adopt it.

If Tesla wised up, can there be any argument for switching the majority of cars and stations to CCS vs. switching the small minority of cars, and larger minority of stations, to Tesla?
 
Not if there were a decision, as being discussed, for the world to switch to using the most popular connector, the Tesla one, which is also the best from an engineering standpoint. In that case, the DC fast stations out there would start stocking CCS to Tesla adapters on a retractable cord (a few already stock CHAdeMO to Tesla adapters because they were officially for sale.) And eventually just put Tesla cords on them because that is the most common kind of car.

If you were going to pick which connector to use, and one connector is in use on 75% of cars, most fast charging stalls, and is better designed, smaller and more capable, would there even be a debate?

The only reason for a debate is because Tesla still holds on to just releasing the connector licence free. They put out a "use our patents free" licence which is not actually free, and as such, people don't adopt it.

If Tesla wised up, can there be any argument for switching the majority of cars and stations to CCS vs. switching the small minority of cars, and larger minority of stations, to Tesla?
Other automakers are not going to switch to the Tesla Proprietary Connector (TPC) because it's proprietary.

Tesla would have to release the TPC into the public domain years ago.
 

strider

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Oct 20, 2010
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I expect Tesla will dual-head new SCs in order to get the rebate money along with access to public areas (think highway rest stops, etc). In a few years (once a sufficient number of SCs are dual-headed) Tesla will switch the cars to CCS. At that point new SC will be CCS only. Owners with the old Tesla Plug will need a CCS adapter. Opening up the SC network is the best way to maximize EV adoption.
 
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