Supercharger Time Remaining Estimate is way off

[Zolfeghar]

Replaced my 2014 MS 85 HV battery out of warranty recently with a refurbished pack. I'm noticing that the time it takes to reach the desired SOC much longer than on my original pack.

On my original battery, supercharger estimated times were accurate to about 5 minutes. On the refurbished pack - the original estimate is consistently about 40 to 50% off. On my last session, it estimated 35 minutes to go from 49% to 90%, however the charge took just over 1 hour to complete. The estimated time adjusts itself during the session so unless you record the total time you wouldn't know anything is off.

Has anyone encountered this problem? is the problem significant enough to be covered by the Tesla battery warranty?

 

[maximizese]

Others with more helpful information will likely chime in but I will share my experience. Before June 2019, our 2013 MS85 was pretty fast at the Superchargers. I'd typically go from 10%-80% SOC in about 50 minutes and would opt to stop charging when the rate dropped before 40kW. After the June 2019 software update our car was nerfed with the rated range dropped from 256 down to 244 overnight, then dropped again to 233 a few years later. Supercharging sessions from 10%-80% takes about 1.3hrs because the charging curve tapers much sooner and sharper. I've adjusted by rarely Supercharging beyond 70% SOC and just aim to get enough range to get to the next furthest Supercharger site with an SOC between 8-12%. With the expansion of both Supercharging sites and stalls it's not so bad when you're driving less than 500 miles to a destination, but I would strongly consider getting Wk057's 100kWh pack upgrade if I were driving further distances...pretty much adds 60miles of range and cuts the Supercharging times in half.

As for your situation, I'd start by checking the alerts in Service Mode to see if there's something wrong with the charging/cooling system. Then I'd say you really ought to optimize your Supercharging sessions by arriving with a warm battery pack and a lower SOC, like somewhere between 6-20% rather than 49%. Asking Tesla Service would at least document your issue/dissatisfaction, but I doubt they will do anything for you since charging speeds never seemed to be part of any guarantee they offered.

 

[Anth89]

I also had such issues last year on my 100D, and it was also related to the charging/cooling system (chargepower would reach the maximum during 2-3 minutes then suddently drops). Was a 250€ fix.
I'm now having one similar issue again - and again the problem is linked to the same area.

I follow @maximizese , you can start by investigating the following:
- Open the service mode while supercharging to see if they are any alerts
- Open a service request to Tesla. If they see something you'll quickly get a quote (in my case they found it directly).
- Have a closer look at your charging power curve and compare it at the examples you can find for example at teslalogger.de/charger.php

 

[Rocky_H]

is the problem significant enough to be covered by the Tesla battery warranty?

The battery warranty says nothing at all about Supercharging speed, so that's not directly applicable.

However, as a couple of people mentioned, there are sometimes failures of operation in a couple of the cooling systems, and the car has sensors enough to intelligently hold down the charging speeds if it sees that it can't cool the battery down enough to keep up with higher speeds. Sometimes this may be a coolant pump, or it may be the louvers that cover the radiators at the front of the car. If those get stuck closed, it can't get enough air flow through to vent out that heat.

So you can go to get some things checked, but it usually isn't something that would be within the battery warranty where the defect would be.

 

[gaswalla]

OP got a true refurbished pack - the cells are frankly just regular used cells and the bms has been refurbished. Hence, the supercharger speeds are typical for a used pack (slow). Always insist on a new pack - the 350v pack - if paying Tesla out of pocket for replacement

 

[Rocky_H]

Always insist on a new pack - the 350v pack - if paying Tesla out of pocket for replacement

The price is about double for that, though. You get the choice of the refurbished or the new at those two different prices.

 

[gaswalla]

Tesla should disclose the differences - they are thinking, 'you get what you pay for'.. but the owner is thinking "12k is a lot of money, but at least I'll have a new battery"... in reality, the 12k bought them a 5 year old, degrading battery with old chemistry with the bonus of less range, slower supercharging, and a realistic lifespan of 2-3 years.

 

[Rocky_H]

Tesla should disclose the differences

They do. One says new, and the other says refurbished.

but the owner is thinking "12k is a lot of money, but at least I'll have a new battery"

Then that owner would be...let's say not very bright...for not seeing that the choices say "new" or "refurbished" with drastic price differences.

 

[gaswalla]

I guess OP can chime in and describe his expectations

 

[maximizese]

Tesla should disclose the differences - they are thinking, 'you get what you pay for'.. but the owner is thinking "12k is a lot of money, but at least I'll have a new battery"... in reality, the 12k bought them a 5 year old, degrading battery with old chemistry with the bonus of less range, slower supercharging, and a realistic lifespan of 2-3 years.

I'm not sure how Tesla should disclose the differences but I (like many other here) would love to know more about the inner workings of their products. One issue I have is that we don't know the criteria and specs that a refurbished battery pack undergoes so we won't know the life expectancy, rate of failures, range difference, and Supercharging curve...not even sure Tesla can predict that until the pack is installed onto the car since range and charging is also dependent on the drive unit, cooling system, and charging system outside of the battery.

Generally, we expect a refurbished product to be as good as a new one but in the category of "scratch and dent" or used. However, HV batteries are a lot more complex therefore the condition and expectations around a refurbished HV battery pack is likely to be complex as well. We don't even know how or why these battery packs were refurbished in the first place...were they production overruns, B-stock quality, fully functional but salvaged from damaged cars, or were they battery packs that had a known failure?

Which brings me to anything lurking question I've been wondering: How good are Tesla's refurbished battery packs compared to ReCell and Wk057 battery packs? What goes into the selection and refurbishing by each source? We may never know but I guess that's where the importance of price and warranty comes into play. I believe Wk057 spoke about some "shoddy" (my word, not his) 3rd party vendors who will tamper with a troubled battery pack to the point where neither he nor Tesla will accept the battery pack as a core because it's been compromised beyond repair. These are all things to consider when you're keeping an EV beyond the warranty and an issue for EV adoption at large.

 

[Zolfeghar]

I checked and there were no errors in service mode during charging. With respect to the refurbished battery, insurance paid for it and I didn't want to pony up the extra cash for a new one - I don't take long trips and felt that the 4-year 50,000 Mile warranty was sufficient. I'm also well aware of the slower SC rates relative to the more recent HV battery architecture - the refurbished battery I got is equivalent in range to my old one (which had 130k miles on it).

The only reason I raised the topic was that with the original battery, my SC time remaining estimates were accurate and with the refurbished one, the time remaining begins with one number but ends up taking significantly longer - this behavior was new and implied a problem.

 

[IsthataTesl.a?]

I'm dealing with this right now... I had been lured to believe that a refurbished battery pack was similar to new as it was stated by Tesla Service that it had the same warranty. Price difference was about four or five thousand dollars as estimate for new pack was $21,000 and refurbished was $16,000.

I had a new (90kW) HV battery pack in 2012 Model S "vehicle one" replaced earlier this year. A second vehicle, 2012 Model S "vehicle two" had a refurbished battery replaced VERY recently.

NEW HV BATTERY PACK...
Supercharges over 115kW at lower states of charge

REFURBISHED BATTERY PACK...
Supercharges at 55kW or so MAXIMUM!

I've been told... "I don't see anything wrong" "it's within spec" yada yada...

I was never told that I would get half the performance for just a several thousand dollars difference.

I'm so incredibly frustrated.

I'm hoping they'll see the simplicity in allowing me to pay for the difference on a new one as regular supercharging with this "refurbished" battery is a nightmare and I undoubtedly WILL be losing sleep over this until it is resolved. It's almost 0200 right now...

@wk057 ?