dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
We're getting off topic again... I don't think there's any doubt that there is a strong use case to be made for DC super fast charging. This thread is supposed to be about Superchargers vs CHAdeMO chargers...
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I've lived in an apartment with no home charging since I got my car over a year ago. It is definitely workable, but depends on your situation. I have access to 120v charging at work. My commute is only 12 miles round trip. A full 8 hrs at work usually gets me 26-28 miles, so I often get home with more miles than when I left. I even regularly drive from Palo Alto to Sacramento (240 miles round trip) I usually leave with a full or 200+ mile charge, and use the Vacaville Supercharger to top off for the drive home, but I as long as I have around 100 miles of range (which is usually what I have if I'm not in the office for a few days) I can make it to the Vacaville Supercharger. Superchargers make this possible for me, otherwise it wouldn't be practical without home charging.
However, I don't always work at the office, which means no charging and longer drives. Some weeks it's all at the office, and charging is no problem. Other times I'm up and down the peninsula and that requires a little bit of planning. If I need to charge outside of work (less than 50 or so miles left), which is maybe 2 or 3 times a month, I usually just leave my car overnight at a L2 public charger about a mile from my house to make sure I'm full in the morning when I leave. 5 min bike ride to get my car isn't a big deal. The same location has a CHAdeMO charger that taunts me with it's unusable presence! The CHAdeMO would provide me with a tremendous amount of flexibility in my travels, and I'd greatly prefer to top off at the CHAdeMO instead of leaving my car overnight at an L2 charger.
However, I don't always work at the office, which means no charging and longer drives. Some weeks it's all at the office, and charging is no problem. Other times I'm up and down the peninsula and that requires a little bit of planning. If I need to charge outside of work (less than 50 or so miles left), which is maybe 2 or 3 times a month, I usually just leave my car overnight at a L2 public charger about a mile from my house to make sure I'm full in the morning when I leave. 5 min bike ride to get my car isn't a big deal. The same location has a CHAdeMO charger that taunts me with it's unusable presence! The CHAdeMO would provide me with a tremendous amount of flexibility in my travels, and I'd greatly prefer to top off at the CHAdeMO instead of leaving my car overnight at an L2 charger.
Dude!
I did mention that often in apartments/condos, "anything better than 120 V 'trickle' charging isn't so easy to support". I would concur that EV ownership with absolutely no home charging is often likely to be an exercise in frustration. However, 120 V home charging combined with public rapid charging could be workable as others have mentioned. And for now, I think CHAdeMO should be preferred because it addresses the largest possible number of EV owners (hopefully to include Tesla owners with an adapter).
Yeah, I hear you on that one. L1 home charging is workable though far from ideal and really not going to move the meter on EV ownership.
I think the main difference here is that I would like to see DCFCs (SCs, chademos, what ever) for long distance travel and not local charging. Home charging is so much better than the next best option. With out it, apartments, condos, co-ops (ACC) residents will resist buying EVs. To me, government should focus on increasing home charging for ACC. I don't believe the current lack of charging options is due to anything other than resistance to change by owners/managers/boards. A few well placed laws would give residents the clout they need and some sweetening grants/incentives will add a little pull for the owners/managers/boards. This is why I think the recent CA grants are deeply misplaced - for the most part they are funding more public L2 chargers.
I think the main difference here is that I would like to see DCFCs (SCs, chademos, what ever) for long distance travel and not local charging. Home charging is so much better than the next best option. With out it, apartments, condos, co-ops (ACC) residents will resist buying EVs. To me, government should focus on increasing home charging for ACC. I don't believe the current lack of charging options is due to anything other than resistance to change by owners/managers/boards. A few well placed laws would give residents the clout they need and some sweetening grants/incentives will add a little pull for the owners/managers/boards. This is why I think the recent CA grants are deeply misplaced - for the most part they are funding more public L2 chargers.
Dude!
I think that multi-headed charging will help resolve the issues at multi-unit housing, but that's not really going to happen until the market expands exponentially, which is why the next generations from Tesla, GM and Nissan will be important. Multi-headed charging is important because it makes it possible to maximize charging per A of supply, which helps keep costs down. Tesla has a patent on a balancing multi-headed L2 unit and I'm sure it's because they've considered this problem and if the market doesn't make a good move on it after Gen 3, Tesla will do it itself.
The problem with CHAdeMO is in the current deployment of chargers that anticipates neither volume nor large batteries.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
So the last few posts remind of another interesting angle. Because of the way my house is built (garage in the back with a narrow-ish driveway past the house) we have an interesting dilemma. With the Leaf tugged into a corner by the garage I can BARELY make it past it with the Model S. So the Tesla charges in the garage, the Leaf charges next to garage outside. But once we replace the Leaf with the Model X there is NO WAY I can have both cars charge over night (without forcing a car shuffle every time I need the one in the garage). So one idea is to basically take turns. Which most of the time should be fine but some days might mean that one of the two cars will need a quick recharge somewhere.
So I wonder if a CHAdeMO infrastructure would not only be useful for people in apartments but also for two EV families that can only reasonably charge one of them over night...
And again, here many CHAdeMO stations across many neighborhoods and many locations (shopping malls, restaurants, etc) would be more useful than the bigger super charger installations along freeways.
So I wonder if a CHAdeMO infrastructure would not only be useful for people in apartments but also for two EV families that can only reasonably charge one of them over night...
And again, here many CHAdeMO stations across many neighborhoods and many locations (shopping malls, restaurants, etc) would be more useful than the bigger super charger installations along freeways.
As someone who has taken a >1000 road trip using SC's, I think Chademo chargers are too slow.
Chademo's charge at 50KW. If you look at the taper curves for supercharging, if you start with a battery at 10% charge, the charging rate doesn't drop to ~50 KW until around the 30 minute mark.
So with Superchargers, you can drive 2 hours and stop for 20-30 minutes (depending on your battery pack). With Chademo, you drive 2 hours and have to charge for 60 minutes.
That sucks.
Chademo's charge at 50KW. If you look at the taper curves for supercharging, if you start with a battery at 10% charge, the charging rate doesn't drop to ~50 KW until around the 30 minute mark.
So with Superchargers, you can drive 2 hours and stop for 20-30 minutes (depending on your battery pack). With Chademo, you drive 2 hours and have to charge for 60 minutes.
That sucks.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
ZBB
Emperor
Dirk -
is 120V charging on alternate nights an option for you? Charge in the garage one night, then on 120V when parked out of the way the second night?
I know with my driving pattern (50 mile round trip commute, and another 10-20 miles sometimes in the evenings), that I could just charge every other night. Even charging on 120V every night for 10-12 hours would work in a pinch if I had to...
is 120V charging on alternate nights an option for you? Charge in the garage one night, then on 120V when parked out of the way the second night?
I know with my driving pattern (50 mile round trip commute, and another 10-20 miles sometimes in the evenings), that I could just charge every other night. Even charging on 120V every night for 10-12 hours would work in a pinch if I had to...
Of course they are, but CHADEMO adapter doubles your recharging places. I really don't see why you're arguing here, when you should be happy about it. The more charging options, the better.
Even in Europe, where we can charge at 22kW AC (3 phase * 32A) with Type2 Mennekes plug, it would be nice to have a CHADEMO adapter, since it's more than 2x faster than 22kW AC public/home charger, however, the cost difference is huge. Public 22kW AC unit costs 3.000-4.000 EUR for 'only' half the speed of the CHADEMO. So, the price/performance ratio gives the 22kW AC unit an edge.
I suppose because the heading says Supercharger vs CHAdeMO :tongue:
Of course the more the better, but I suppose the discussion turns to this when deployment of one threatens to suppress the deployment of the other - directly or indirectly.
I think all de-facto standards will stay for a long time - just like different wall plugs. There will be adapters, just like CHADEMO -> Model S adapter, Meenekes Type2 -> J1772 we have in Europe or Schuko -> J1772 adapter.
Don't look at it as a competition, but rather as more charging opportunities. There's plenty of space for all of them.
You'll see, that I'm right, when you get the Chademo adapter available
Don't look at it as a competition, but rather as more charging opportunities. There's plenty of space for all of them.
You'll see, that I'm right, when you get the Chademo adapter available
If anyone hasn't actually held the CHAdeMO plug before it weighs a ton and really is huge. Sure if that was the only choice in the market it wouldn't matter but when there is choice looks and how the user interacts with it does matter.
If it's gonna charge your car almost as fast as the SC on the location where there are no SuperChargers, I'd say 'Who cares'. Your car is gonna get a fast charge on the location, where there are no SuperChargers and that's all that matters.
You have really gotten to spoiled.
I've been driving my Vectrix maxi-scooter since 2008, when there were no public charging spots. I appreciate every new one, that's being built, even if it's just a 230V 16A Schuko plug.
I've been driving my Ampera (Volt) for 2 years now, done 53.000km and consumed only 290l of gasoline all the rest was done on electric power using only 3.3kW J1772 plug.
You have really gotten to spoiled.
I've been driving my Vectrix maxi-scooter since 2008, when there were no public charging spots. I appreciate every new one, that's being built, even if it's just a 230V 16A Schuko plug.
I've been driving my Ampera (Volt) for 2 years now, done 53.000km and consumed only 290l of gasoline all the rest was done on electric power using only 3.3kW J1772 plug.
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