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Superchargers for Model 3

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Superchargers are a large part of what makes a Tesla vehicle viable (particularly in the USA). There is NO way Tesla won't include SC access. Might they offer a base Model 3 without it? Maybe. Will it be optional on some entry level Model 3s? Perhaps. But the vast majority of Model 3s will have it and it will be bundled in the price of the car.

Superchargers are Tesla's crown jewel.

And every time Porsche or Audi or BMW show some new electric car that's touted as a Tesla Killer - I just laugh. Come back when any of these so-called competitors have some kind of electric infrastructure.

What I'm waiting for is one of the gas station chains that have convenience stores to start adding chargers. I would love to see Tesla make a deal with AM/PM Mini Marts or ideally Wawa (somewhat local to PA area).
 
Superchargers are a large part of what makes a Tesla vehicle viable (particularly in the USA). There is NO way Tesla won't include SC access. Might they offer a base Model 3 without it? Maybe. Will it be optional on some entry level Model 3s? Perhaps. But the vast majority of Model 3s will have it and it will be bundled in the price of the car.

Superchargers are Tesla's crown jewel.

And every time Porsche or Audi or BMW show some new electric car that's touted as a Tesla Killer - I just laugh. Come back when any of these so-called competitors have some kind of electric infrastructure.

What I'm waiting for is one of the gas station chains that have convenience stores to start adding chargers. I would love to see Tesla make a deal with AM/PM Mini Marts or ideally Wawa (somewhat local to PA area).


No one can predict the future, but I have a feeling the Supercharger access will be a add on to the Model 3. While there are several nearby for me, (none close enough for local charging though) there are a lot of people who don't live anywhere near one, and just don't need it. Why pay for it when you don't need it? Adding let's say $3,000 to a car optionally for lifetime charger access, especially when most of us will never will recoup that cost in electricity bills will greatly help expand the network. Especially if they ever start recouping the SC electric cost using solar or whatever. Doesn't have to be local solar either. A massive array in the Southwest could offset the bills for cars charging in cloudy Maine.

Secondly, I would love to see a deal with a national gas station chain for superchargers (or even HPWC), but remember lots of gas stations, especially urban ones don't exactly have a ton of room to park an additional 4-6 cars for 20-40 minutes continuously. Gas stations are designed for quick in and out. Also the icing at gas station Superchargers or HPWC would be crazy, but probably short term, as mentioned they are usually short in and out stops.
 
I think you have not given this scenerio enough thought, "keep the locals out" there will always be those who thoughtlessly "game the system. So with your 200+ mile range model 3, do you take 10 seconds to plugin or drive half an hour or an hour, or more each way, fighting traffic, spend more time at a supercharger, drive back losing part of the charge you gained, waste hours and hours of your time vs 10 seconds. If you can afford the Tesla your earning are probably well above $30-40/hr. SO you spent $100+ of your time to gain $1-$3 of electricity (and waste part of that in the drive home) nice ROI
If this is so, why are some Supercharger stations located in or near big cities already congested? It appears that some local drivers are already using them for routine free charging. If people are willing to drive miles out of their way to save 5¢/gallon on gas, this behavior doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I agree with the others that some sort of limitation will be necessary for local charging, if the network is to serve its purpose of allowing long distance travel. Something like limiting charging within 50 miles of one's house to two a month. Or pay-to-charge, although that seems like more of a hassle to implement.
 
No one can predict the future, but I have a feeling the Supercharger access will be a add on to the Model 3. While there are several nearby for me, (none close enough for local charging though) there are a lot of people who don't live anywhere near one, and just don't need it. Why pay for it when you don't need it? Adding let's say $3,000 to a car optionally for lifetime charger access, especially when most of us will never will recoup that cost in electricity bills will greatly help expand the network. Especially if they ever start recouping the SC electric cost using solar or whatever. Doesn't have to be local solar either. A massive array in the Southwest could offset the bills for cars charging in cloudy Maine.

Secondly, I would love to see a deal with a national gas station chain for superchargers (or even HPWC), but remember lots of gas stations, especially urban ones don't exactly have a ton of room to park an additional 4-6 cars for 20-40 minutes continuously. Gas stations are designed for quick in and out. Also the icing at gas station Superchargers or HPWC would be crazy, but probably short term, as mentioned they are usually short in and out stops.


Why?

Because the vast majority of people are not yet comfortable with electric cars. For those of us here, we understand the tradeoffs and the type of thinking and planning required to own a Tesla.

But the Model 3 is different. It's going to be Tesla's first real attempt at a mass market, wider audience. The Model 3 is essentially the do-or-die move for Tesla and they can't afford to present any weakness or shortcomings to this new wider audience. The Supercharger network is necessary for the mass market to be comfortable with such a drastic change in their vehicle ownership. A Tesla without Supercharger access is essentially a 2nd vehicle "urban commuting" car. Tesla can't afford that perception with this major introduction. We here are the early adopters. We are not the market Tesla is going after.

That's my opinion.

WRT to the gas station/mini mart comment. In our area we have the Wawa chain. Most of their new installations are HUGE. Wide spaced gas/diesel pumps. Large convenience store with loads of parking. Wawa would be an excellent match for Tesla because they are a very forward looking, innovative company. I'm sure there are others.
 
Or pay-to-charge, although that seems like more of a hassle to implement.

I really don't think it is. The car already communicates with Tesla when you plug in, what's stopping them from implementing a pay per charge model? People scream "privacy!!!!" but honestly if you want to pay & charge, privacy won't be an option, simple as that. Problem? Use the other manufacturers massive Tesla compatible charging network. Oh wait, there really isn't another one.
Honestly if you value your privacy you probably aren't driving a Tesla considering how "connected" it is.

How the billing would be set up is a whole different matter. Per charge, per Watt/hr, per miles gained, flat time at charger, or "unlimited for day/week/month" option. I'd say they go with unlimited weekly charging for some undetermined rate.

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Why?

Because the vast majority of people are not yet comfortable with electric cars. For those of us here, we understand the tradeoffs and the type of thinking and planning required to own a Tesla.

But the Model 3 is different. It's going to be Tesla's first real attempt at a mass market, wider audience. The Model 3 is essentially the do-or-die move for Tesla and they can't afford to present any weakness or shortcomings to this new wider audience. The Supercharger network is necessary for the mass market to be comfortable with such a drastic change in their vehicle ownership. A Tesla without Supercharger access is essentially a 2nd vehicle "urban commuting" car. Tesla can't afford that perception with this major introduction. We here are the early adopters. We are not the market Tesla is going after.

That's my opinion.

WRT to the gas station/mini mart comment. In our area we have the Wawa chain. Most of their new installations are HUGE. Wide spaced gas/diesel pumps. Large convenience store with loads of parking. Wawa would be an excellent match for Tesla because they are a very forward looking, innovative company. I'm sure there are others.
Point one: If you live anywhere where there is zero supercharger access, why should you pay for it? Tesla apparently likes options over streamlined. The continued, and recently expanded existence of the RWD models shows this, so why not have supercharging be a paid option (or pay-per use option) on the 3?
Honestly, it just dawned on me the opportunity 500,000 cars a year has for this. Suddenly Tesla not only sells the cars, but owns (and can bill for) the gas stations for these cars. Sure you can charge at home, or at any of the gazillion free public charging (J1772) type stations out there, but if you want a quick charge on the road at a Supercharger, you pay Tesla. They would own the cars and the gas! Profits galore! Half kidding, but if the user cost to charge the car is more then the cost to Tesla for the electricity, then that's a potential revenue stream. I pay $5 for 250 miles on my 3, Tesla pays the local electric provider $4, no money goes to oil companies. Everyone wins except oil investors!
Also remember the 3 is, at a minimum, 4 years away from being on the road. Maybe 3, but probably 4. So there is a lot of time for the public to become more and more adjusted to electric vehicles and their charging issues.


Finally, Wawa is also super regional. I grew up in New England and hadn't heard of them until I was like 20. Every region has a specific dense chain (Wawa, Cumberland Farms, Stewarts Shops, Maverick, etc...) so the point is still stands. I'd expect something more national though, like Pilot, or Flying J.

/edit Think of those huge truckstop style gas stations off interstates. Those are the places perfect for a collaboration with Telsa. Not the tiny corner gas station inside the urban area.
 
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I really don't think it is. The car already communicates with Tesla when you plug in, what's stopping them from implementing a pay per charge model? People scream "privacy!!!!" but honestly if you want to pay & charge, privacy won't be an option, simple as that. Problem? Use the other manufacturers massive Tesla compatible charging network. Oh wait, there really isn't another one.
Honestly if you value your privacy you probably aren't driving a Tesla considering how "connected" it is...
Yes, it is relatively straightforward to charge since Tesla knows which car is plugged-in at any given time anyway. But it would require setting up a billing system of some sort. The advantage of "free" is simplicity, both for Tesla and for drivers. My suggestion to limit local charging is simply to allow the "free" model to go forward with a reasonable number of Superchargers and without congestion at those near population centers.
...How the billing would be set up is a whole different matter. Per charge, per Watt/hr, per miles gained, flat time at charger, or "unlimited for day/week/month" option. I'd say they go with unlimited weekly charging for some undetermined rate...
The problem with unlimited weekly charging is that it doesn't do as much to reduce congestion at the Supercharger stations. If I'm already paying for unlimited charging, the inclination will be to use it as much as possible to "get my money's worth". With a pay model I'd prefer to see a time or kWh based fee to reduce "camping" at the Supercharger.
 
There are easier ways to stop people from using superchargers to displace home charging than placing a fee on supercharging... they could place a cap on SC use near your home or limit your use of any singe SC. If you're using the same SC 5 times/week... pretty good chance you're abusing the system... I'm sure there are exceptions but those exceptions probably won't cause much congestion.
 
If this is so, why are some Supercharger stations located in or near big cities already congested? It appears that some local drivers are already using them for routine free charging. If people are willing to drive miles out of their way to save 5¢/gallon on gas, this behavior doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I agree with the others that some sort of limitation will be necessary for local charging, if the network is to serve its purpose of allowing long distance travel. Something like limiting charging within 50 miles of one's house to two a month. Or pay-to-charge, although that seems like more of a hassle to implement.


What is entirely possible for urban Superchargers is that while they may be inconvenient for owners to drive to them from home, they certainly could be fairly convenient in their daily commute. When you combine a slight detour off the freeway with shopping or dining for an hour, this scenario (I think) would be attractive to many people.

Tesla is going to have to give this idea of local Supercharging a serious evaluation before the Model 3 comes out. It very well may be that there will be some sort of limitation in place. Or, perhaps by then Tesla will partner with some other company for "Urbanchargers" that will have some sort of fee structure. Or, Supercharger density will increase 5-fold with a corresponding increase in stalls per site.

If we assume a lead time of two years between announcement and reservations of Model 3 and the start of significant deliveries, Tesla should have a fairly good idea as to how many customers will need the availability of urban charging because home/work charging is not possible.
 
If we assume a lead time of two years between announcement and reservations of Model 3 and the start of significant deliveries, Tesla should have a fairly good idea as to how many customers will need the availability of urban charging because home/work charging is not possible.

L3 charging might be a good temporary solution to the lack of home/work charging but the long-term fix needs to be L2 charging at home/work. Scaling L3 charging would be significantly more expensive and less efficient than simply expanding L2.

At least Tesla is working to correct the misconception that superchargers are intended to prevent you from paying to charge your car at home. I can see how some people may have interpreted it that way but even 3 years ago that wasn't my interpretation on what they meant by 'free charging for life'. If you charge at home when you CAN charge at home then 'unlimited ($2k) LONG-DISTANCE supercharging' should be more than sustainable even with a mass market M3.
 
Also greatly expanding the destination charging network can go a long way for this. Or perhaps limiting the use of Superchargers only to locations greater than 50 miles from your registered home.... Who knows.
 
You have the option to turn off feedback to Tesla Motors, and some do for privacy reasons. So what your saying is not possible that way, I don't think its legally feaseble as well.

I believe you are wrong. This is not feedback. Tesla verifies your car is legitimate when you supercharge and there is an exchange that identifies your car to Tesla. This is no different than having to provide your license plate number for a hotel parking lot.
 
I think you have not given this scenerio enough thought, "keep the locals out" there will always be those who thoughtlessly "game the system. So with your 200+ mile range model 3, do you take 10 seconds to plugin or drive half an hour or an hour, or more each way, fighting traffic, spend more time at a supercharger, drive back losing part of the charge you gained, waste hours and hours of your time vs 10 seconds. If you can afford the Tesla your earning are probably well above $30-40/hr. SO you spent $100+ of your time to gain $1-$3 of electricity (and waste part of that in the drive home) nice ROI

Just starting reading this thread and was going to end up posting this same thing. I was going to ask was I the only prospective Model 3 owner who DOESN'T really care that much about super charger access? The closest supercharger to me is clear across town. Unless I'm taking a trip to Tampa, I probably wouldn't be going anywhere near that SC, and even then it's still out of the way. Even still, I plan on using the Model 3 as my daily driver. My wife has the CUV for road trips. I plan to charge at home and call it a day.
 
I think you have not given this scenerio enough thought, "keep the locals out" there will always be those who thoughtlessly "game the system. So with your 200+ mile range model 3, do you take 10 seconds to plugin or drive half an hour or an hour, or more each way, fighting traffic, spend more time at a supercharger, drive back losing part of the charge you gained, waste hours and hours of your time vs 10 seconds. If you can afford the Tesla your earning are probably well above $30-40/hr. SO you spent $100+ of your time to gain $1-$3 of electricity (and waste part of that in the drive home) nice ROI

Yes, but people do it because it is "free". If it wasn't "free" I think the mentality would be completely different. Personally I think $5 to charge to 80% and additional charges to charge to 100% would make the whole system work better. However, it's a less powerful marketing message, so I don't think Tesla will do it.
 
Just starting reading this thread and was going to end up posting this same thing. I was going to ask was I the only prospective Model 3 owner who DOESN'T really care that much about super charger access? The closest supercharger to me is clear across town. Unless I'm taking a trip to Tampa, I probably wouldn't be going anywhere near that SC, and even then it's still out of the way. Even still, I plan on using the Model 3 as my daily driver. My wife has the CUV for road trips. I plan to charge at home and call it a day.

For me, the superchargers are the only thing that will make a Model 3 a viable purchase. But not because of local charging - I will charge at home. But I will need the supercharger network for trips and I'll definitely use it. I have no interest in a Leaf because I can't take a road trip in it. Yes, we have two cars in the family, but there's no way we're going to spend 40 grand on a brand new electric car and then take road trips in the 9 year old car that has 140k miles on it and still uses gas. My 'daily driver' and 'road trip car' are the same thing. If I can't get at least the same utility out of the Model 3 as I do out of my current nicest car, it's not a good purchase for me.

I doubt very much that Tesla will implement any kind of pay-as-you-go system for the superchargers. I think it will either be included outright, included with some restrictions, or optional on the most basic model but included with the rest. Whether it's included or extra, I will definitely be getting supercharger access.
 
Seems a bad idea. If the SC is 30 miles from your home and have 20 miles range left at the supercharger, you'll be left with fewer, much slower options...
I think the idea would be to limit the use of Superchargers within 50 miles of home to, perhaps, two a month, or something like that. Anything more than the limit would lead to a fee being charged. The idea would be to save those free uses of the local Supercharger station for when you really need it.

Just speculating. I have no idea how Tesla will resolve the Supercharger congestion issue. But if, someday, there are a million or more Supercharger capable cars on the road, the issue will have to be addressed somehow. Limiting local charging seems like an easier solution than implementing a pay-per-use for all Superchargers or building tens of thousands of Superchargers to completely saturate every urban area with them, which would be very expensive.
 
The approach Tesla is using right now is to encourage those that have the option of home charging to use it as much as possible. Tesla is also installing more destination chargers. I think eventually Tesla will convert the most congested city superchargers into paid chargers (just rebrand it).

But I do want to note that daily charging for people without dedicated parking will affect all EV makers and I think it is reasonable to expect the government will do something in that regard (whether it be laws or public chargers) rather than Tesla single-handedly carrying all the burden.
 
I think they could charge 0.50/kWh for supercharging.

Let's say a stop at a supercharger is for 50 kWh. The stop would be $25.00. The profit margin should be enough to make it practical for Tesla to go through the hassle of billing a person's credit card. Not to mention, the money will go toward more supercharging stations.

The past alternative was a flat one-time charge of $2000. They could very well make that an option. When you do the math with the scenario I've presented, it would take 80 stops at 50 kWh each to reach $2000.

Charging a high rate would also prevent abuse from local use.

I think a lot of potential Model 3 buyers will be hard pressed to justify a multi-thousand dollar upfront cost to something they might be using sparingly.
 
The past alternative was a flat one-time charge of $2000. They could very well make that an option. When you do the math with the scenario I've presented, it would take 80 stops at 50 kWh each to reach $2000.

You can't have it both ways... if the options are $0.50/kWh OR $2k unlimited that would make abuse worse since you're re-sending the original erroneous message that superchargers are in any way intended to displace home charging. You would be selecting for people that intend to use local SCs to justify the $2k cost then encouraging them to recoup it by using local SCs more. Also... at $0.50/kWh it's cheaper to take a 30mpg ICE on a road trip... SCs need to remain 'free' to compensate for the perceived inconvenience of charging on a trip.

If you meant local SCs cost $0.50/kWh, non-local SCs are 'free' AND SC access costs $2k for life.... that would work :wink:

IMO the ideal solution is to 'lock out' a vehicle from a specific SC after X uses over Y days... perhaps unlocking the SC would be as simple as a phone call to Tesla requesting access... this hassle would probably be enough to discourage routine abuse will still allowing the occasional 'Just need a few more kWhs to get home'. There's tremendous marketing power in claiming 'Free LONG-DISTANCE charging for life' I don't think it's worth throwing that away on account of a few bad actors.