Superchargers for Model 3

[Ryan H]

I admit I'm not one to get all excited about 'free'. I always try to look at the underlying cost.

Maybe unlimited use would not be good. I suggested the $0.50/kWh because I have seen posts from people in California where peak rates are over $0.40/kWh. Tesla can't charge less than what they pay. Maybe they could do pay as you go, or package deals where they charge you slightly less upfront.

 

[tga]

As has been mentioned, charging per kWh will not fly in many states, as this would be viewed as selling power, which requires a utility license from the state.

 

[nwdiver]

As has been mentioned, charging per kWh will not fly in many states, as this would be viewed as selling power, which requires a utility license from the state.

Hmmm.... so electricity is kinda like sex... you can give it away for free but it's illegal to sell it..... except in Nevada... where you still need a license...:biggrin:

 

[ratsbew]

I've thought long and hard about this and here is my stream of consciousness on the topic.

I think that all Model 3 cars should have supercharging capability built in from the factory. Supercharging should be "free" up to six times per year (perhaps 400kWh/year) forever for the original owner. This is enough to cover up to six extended day trips where you might need the charge to get home or one long road trip across state lines. After you use up your six per year, the next time you plug into a supercharger you will be presented with an app on the center touch screen that will allow you to prepay for one day, three days, 7 days or 14 days. If you prepay for three days (let's say $75) the you can charge as much as you want in the next 72 hours. The prepay options should be profitable for Tesla.

I think this is a good way to keep the spirit of "free supercharging", without allowing local abuse. If someone wants to use local superchargers then they will be paying so that it helps support the infrastructure and doesn't cost Tesla in the long run.

One of the big points I'm trying to make is that the center touch screen creates a perfect payment system. The app could keep track of how many free supercharges you have left and how many days of prepay you have left.

As a TSLA investor the thought of having a revenue stream with the Supercharger network sounds pretty good.

 

[nwdiver]

Supercharging should be "free" up to six times per year (perhaps 400kWh/year) forever for the original owner.

.... Free or 'Free'? 6 times per year for free or 6 times per year for $2k?

By far the largest cost of the supercharger network is capital... not electricity. A 4 bay SC is estimated to cost ~$200k.

If those 6 uses are Free who pays to expand the Superchargers?

If those 6 uses are 'Free' who's going to pay $2k to charge 6 times per year?


I doubt Tesla pays >$30 to fully charge an MS... and the goal is to displace much of that cost in the future with solar... the SC bays themselves obviously can't host sufficient solar to completely offset consumption but off-site solar certainly could. $2k should be able to buy ~1kW of solar. 1kW generates ~1500kWh/yr or ~4500 miles of driving. I read an article on insideevs a while back (if someone can find it please link to it) which stated that <10% of miles traveled are charged from superchargers. If SCs aren't used to displace home charging that ratio shouldn't change much with the model 3. So $1300 of that $2k can go towards expanding the network and $700 can go towards Solar PV and the system should be self-sustaining with unlimited free LONG-DISTANCE charging indefinitely.

As a TSLA investor the thought of having a revenue stream with the Supercharger network sounds pretty good.

Think of the SC network as a marketing tool... although they will hopefully be able to charge the LAMEs to use it in the future.

 

[Skotty]

The past alternative was a flat one-time charge of $2000. They could very well make that an option. When you do the math with the scenario I've presented, it would take 80 stops at 50 kWh each to reach $2000.

I travel a lot for work, and will likely need about 40 Supercharger visits per year that would likely be near 50 kWh each. That means I would use up the built in $2K in only 2 years, after which Tesla begins losing money on me at the rate of $1000 per year until I buy a new car. That doesn't seem right to me. They should charge me for my electricity usage, not build in a flat amount.

 

[Fiver]

I travel a lot for work, and will likely need about 40 Supercharger visits per year that would likely be near 50 kWh each. That means I would use up the built in $2K in only 2 years, after which Tesla begins losing money on me at the rate of $1000 per year until I buy a new car. That doesn't seem right to me. They should charge me for my electricity usage, not build in a flat amount.

I have a feeling you are the exception, not the norm.

 

[nwdiver]

I travel a lot for work, and will likely need about 40 Supercharger visits per year that would likely be near 50 kWh each. That means I would use up the built in $2K in only 2 years, after which Tesla begins losing money on me at the rate of $1000 per year until I buy a new car. That doesn't seem right to me. They should charge me for my electricity usage, not build in a flat amount.

It's a socialized system... the people that rarely or never use it aren't going to get a refund... sometimes there's a benefit to simplicity.

 

[Ryan H]

I travel a lot for work, and will likely need about 40 Supercharger visits per year that would likely be near 50 kWh each. That means I would use up the built in $2K in only 2 years, after which Tesla begins losing money on me at the rate of $1000 per year until I buy a new car. That doesn't seem right to me. They should charge me for my electricity usage, not build in a flat amount.

In the perfect world, they should charge people for electricity usage, but it's being pointed out that they can't do that without being treated as a utility and all the regulations that go along with it. They wouldn't be losing money on you. My math was based on $0.50/kWh. As far as I know, no one in the U.S. charges that much for electricity. Plus, they would have your money upfront, which gives them the capital they need to build the Supercharger network.

 

[Ryan H]

I think that all Model 3 cars should have supercharging capability built in from the factory. Supercharging should be "free" up to six times per year (perhaps 400kWh/year) forever for the original owner. This is enough to cover up to six extended day trips where you might need the charge to get home or one long road trip across state lines. After you use up your six per year, the next time you plug into a supercharger you will be presented with an app on the center touch screen that will allow you to prepay for one day, three days, 7 days or 14 days. If you prepay for three days (let's say $75) the you can charge as much as you want in the next 72 hours. The prepay options should be profitable for Tesla.

I agree with you. I think some kind of prepay is going to be a must. With a lower price model, they can't expect everyone to pay $2000 upfront. Limiting would definitely prevent local abuse, but they also need to consider the possibility of more than expected use. They can't just cut the car off. Imagine someone traveling and plugging in at the Supercharger only to realize that they're over the limit. They can't leave them stranded at the Supercharger.

I wonder at some point if they'll just do away with supercharging as an option, and just implement pay as you go with new vehicles. They're obviously having a problem with it the way it is based on the letters that have gone out.

 

[Kevin Harney]

My personal thought is that this discussion is silly. I believe that Supercharging will be free for life for all Tesla Owners. I believe that they will build the price of it into the car. Tesla has said that the costs are nominal to the company.

 

[Ryan H]

I'm not sure if cost is a primary concern. I think abuse will have to be dealt with somehow. With that said, I can't begin to imagine what the Wednesday before Thanksgiving will look like with millions of Teslas on the road.

 

[Kevin Harney]

I'm not sure if cost is a primary concern. I think abuse will have to be dealt with somehow. With that said, I can't begin to imagine what the Wednesday before Thanksgiving will look like with millions of Teslas on the road.

It's the Friday after that will be the problem. People will leave Wednesday with a full charge from home. I believe that there will be plenty of chargers by then to handle the problem.

 

[gregincal]

I'm not sure if cost is a primary concern. I think abuse will have to be dealt with somehow. With that said, I can't begin to imagine what the Wednesday before Thanksgiving will look like with millions of Teslas on the road.

You have to imagine it with 10-20 times the number of supercharger stalls as currently available. Obviously the number of superchargers has to scale with the number of cars sold. Ultimately we may not be able to have Tesla doing this on its own, but I still believe that solving this problem is a lot cheaper than the cost of hydrogen stations.

- - - Updated - - -

It's the Friday after that will be the problem. People will leave Wednesday with a full charge from home. I believe that there will be plenty of chargers by then to handle the problem.

Depends on how far they are driving. The number of cars that drive between northern and southern California through the I5 corridor on that Wednesday is staggering.

 

[Ryan H]

The other likely possibility will be that as battery technology improves, cars will have greater range, so the demand on Superchargers will be less. That's assuming abuse is kept in check somehow.

 

[1208]

Better be free to everyone.

We don't want any of this Class Warfare rubbish that my country invented. Don't like the way some people assume the cheaper model 3 users will abuse it more.

The goal is for mass adoption of EV's, the supercharger network has a pivotal role in this.

 

[MassModel3]

My personal thought is that this discussion is silly. I believe that Supercharging will be free for life for all Tesla Owners. I believe that they will build the price of it into the car. Tesla has said that the costs are nominal to the company.

Let's qualify that as free for life for all future Tesla owners.

Owners of Model S 40's and 60's (like me) don't necessarily have that enabled and it hardly seems worth it for me to shell out two-and-a-half grand unless I suddenly decide to take a trek across country. But I do wholeheartedly agree that the Model 3 buyers will have it right from the start.

 

[nwdiver]

We don't want any of this Class Warfare rubbish that my country invented. Don't like the way some people assume the cheaper model 3 users will abuse it more.

The goal is for mass adoption of EV's, the supercharger network has a pivotal role in this.

Agree 100% that the M3 & MS should have the same level of supercharge access...

But... concerns over increased local use with the M3 vs MS is just rational. Someone who makes $100/hr is more likely to buy an MS and less likely to spend 30 min sitting at an SC to save $20.

I saw a volta L2 free public charger near SF with a line of LEAFs 3 deep... $20 is a lot more $$$ to someone making $30/hr than it is to someone making >$100/hr...

 

[Ryan H]

I think Tesla will have to change how they implement supercharging for the Model 3. They've already had to backtrack from free supercharging for life to free long distance supercharging for life on the Model S. Whatever problems they're currently facing with supercharging will be amplified for the Model 3 if they don't make changes. Tesla is learning. I hope they get it right with the Model 3. I'm sure they're considering all the options we've come up with here and then some.

 

[trils0n]

I think Tesla should continue the Supercharger access as it is now. Free, included with price of the car. If they are too close to the 35k price point for the base model, it will probably be a one-time-cost option.

The operating cost issue is minimal, but would be negatively impacted if many users charge at Superchargers instead of at home to save money. Congestion is a bigger issue. Depending on how quickly the network is built out, and sites expanded, it might be necessary for Tesla to take some actions.

If Tesla could identify who was using Superchargers instead of their home charging (those who have home charging, and use local superchargers instead), then a potential solution might be to limit them to specific stalls. Perhaps to a single cabinet (1a/1b) or maybe just a single stall. That would reduce congestion for travelers, (if locals were causing congestion), and "abusing locals" would be more likely to be queued up and realize it isn't worth the free juice given the wait times, and go charge at home. They wouldn't experience charge limiting (makes problem worse) or be denied charging. Would help with cost, and congestion.

Not sure how to solve the problem of inconsiderate users leaving their cars plugged in long after they finish charging.