Superchargers for Model 3

[nwdiver]

I live inside the perimeter of Atlanta, GA in Live, Work, Play environment. Our building is actually attached to a garage with several supercharges down on the 2nd level of the parking deck.

Superchargers or HPWCs? Are they a 5' pedestal or a box hanging on a wall? L2 charging like HPWCs needs to be the longterm urban solution.

 

[Bimbels]

I live inside the perimeter of Atlanta, GA in Live, Work, Play environment. Our building is actually attached to a garage with several supercharges down on the 2nd level of the parking deck. This would be my charging solution as often as I needed to charge. I'd prefer to pay for Supercharging included in the cost of the car rather than pay as you charge.

I'm probably in the minority of people who actually have no garage and would need supercharging as their main charging option. Maybe there are two option pay as you charge or pay $2000 upfront and charge as often as you'd like.

Are you sure it's a "supercharger" in the parking garage? I'm not aware of any superchargers in garages in Atlanta - I think you are thinking HPWC - or destination charging. Not as fast as superchargers.

 

[ElectricTundra]

Why? $2k/car is more than enough to support the network including expansion and paying for power/maintenance.

How do you know this?

Perhaps all SCs within ~50 miles of your home would be unavailable... if you're running a bit short you can call Tesla and ask them to enable the SC 'just this once'; Tesla doesn't even ever have to say 'no this is the 4th time this week'; The hassle alone would probably reduce 'abuse' to insignificant levels. There will always be people that find a way around the system but its unlikely there would be enough of them to cause a que.

Agree. A 50 mile (or 25 or ??) exclusion zone isn't a bad idea for dealing with local hogs.

 

[GKwey]

The base model 3 very likely won't come with free supercharging; but will be offered as an option for $2,000 when ordering or $2,500 after delivery. This kind of configuration makes a lot of sense. Since a lot of people don't want to pay for this option on model 3; e.g. if you have multiple Tesla cars in your household, you only need to have one of them super chargeable for road trip.

But what I really want to say is this: once you paid for it, you are free to use it whenever and however you want. It's not limited to road trip. I really don't like people spreading misinformation about locals can't use or not supposed to use superchargers near their home, or anything to this effect.

 

[stopcrazypp]

...later stations did not come until late 2014 / early 2015, when Tesla made it official policy they would support superchargers as a solution for daily inner city charging (I am trying to dig out Elon's specific speeches where he mentioned this, but I remember them being in that time frame, as the below linked thread references).

As promised here is the link to the May 2014 conference call when Elon mentioned the idea of using superchargers as a solution to those without home charging:
Tesla Earnings Call Transcript Q1 2014 – Complete Conference Call - Insider Monkey

Amm, something we are doing aaa…aaa…in…in China, another possibility is we’re…we’re putting Superchargers in cities, not just between cities. Amm, this is obviously important in places like, aaa…you know, Beijing, Shanghai, London, San Francisco, aaa…New York, aaa…where at times people may have a challenge with aaa…having a…a…a fixed parking space.

 

[Twiglett]

I live inside the perimeter of Atlanta, GA in Live, Work, Play environment. Our building is actually attached to a garage with several supercharges down on the 2nd level of the parking deck. This would be my charging solution as often as I needed to charge. I'd prefer to pay for Supercharging included in the cost of the car rather than pay as you charge.

I'm probably in the minority of people who actually have no garage and would need supercharging as their main charging option. Maybe there are two option pay as you charge or pay $2000 upfront and charge as often as you'd like.

sadly using the SC's for that is exactly what the problem is.
SC's are for long distance driving, not as your primary charging solution. They are chargers not parking spaces.

 

[SureValla]

superchargers are what make Tesla's better than a any other electric car on the road. I am near certain now Tesla will include this in the price of the car or even be willing to take a loss on including it in the price of the car.

 

[Darryl]

Several times in the last three months Elon has reiterated the normal place individual will be getting recharged will be at home overnight.

I had read a final decision has not been made on how Model 3 users will be charged. Not everyone needs or desires access. It would be unfair to build it into the cost of the car if the person won't be using it. There are alternatives such as either as a option, annual subscription fee, or pay as you go, etc The Supercharger network was built for mid to long range trips and not meant for daily commuters unless their daily trips taker them over 200-250 miles each day.

I think people are confusing the supercharging network with Tesla HPWC chargers which are located at malls, grocery stores, hotels and doctor's offices and at people's homes. etc. These chargers are for use by customers of these business or people who live at these locations.

There is just not enough superchargers in the network to serve the daily commute purpose. If people were to use them for this purpose waiting times just to get to the charger would become prehibativrly long. Add to that the time to charge and you could be talking adding hours to your daily commute. There are other alternatives to the supercharging network. Many employers are putting in charging stations at work and public garages are starting to install charging stations. Coops, apartment builders and condos will eventually have to address the issue. Better now than later.

 

[MiamiNole]

It would be unfair to build it into the cost of the car if the person won't be using it.

So I take it you also think it's unfair that it's built into the cost of the S/X for people that don't use them, right?

 

[Brad_SC]

e.g. if you have multiple Tesla cars in your household, you only need to have one of them super chargeable for road trip.

This is a great point, and I agree, a lot of people won't need SuperCharger access at all, and many others will desire/need it, but possibly only on one vehicle per home. Other homes will find the need for it on multiple vehicles... but you've clearly identified why it being an optional upgrade is relevant.

But what I really want to say is this: once you paid for it, you are free to use it whenever and however you want. It's not limited to road trip. I really don't like people spreading misinformation about locals can't use or not supposed to use superchargers near their home, or anything to this effect.

I seriously understand why people will fall on each side of this debate.

Everyone won't agree with me, and I am OK with them being incorrect (Really though, I am just kidding. We all have our opinions, and that's OK. ).

Anyone who intends to use SuperChargers regularly (either by choice or necessity) should still charge fully the day/night before at their residence to reduce the time they'll occupy a SuperCharger stall.

I work from my home, and thus have no commute. My home is only 2 years old (hence, new wiring), has a multi-car garage (that I actually park my cars in), my home's breaker box is in my garage, and in the average month my longest day of driving is still under 100 miles. For me, charging 100% at home will be a cinch 8-10 months per year.

If you have (truly) exhausted all possible options to safely charge at your residence you are a more likely case for regular local SuperCharger use. However, I do not believe that paying $2,000 upfront entitles anyone to "bill" Tesla for every mile they drive by constant use of local SuperChargers.

I do express the belief that SuperCharger use is intended for long distance travel, and I stand-by my belief in this. However, I do believe that there will be circumstances where even I may be just a few miles from home, and still need to stop at a SuperCharger to make it those last few miles (very rare situation, and I'll probably only charge 10 miles more than required to get home). I also believe that in certain circumstances home charging will be too slow and a quickie at the SuperCharger will be appropriate (very rare situation, and again I'll probably only charge 10 miles more than required for my situation).

Just my thoughts and opinions, I'm not preaching.

 

[EcoHeliGuy]

Supercharging will be free, cost nothing to install the feature in the car. And is the key aspect to Tesla motors.

Easy fix for local supercharger hogs:
Geofence the area between their residence and the local supercharger. If all driving from last charge was with in the geofences area, the supercharger is deactivated. If they drive out side of that area they can access a local supercharger to get around and home.

by using a geofence radius specific to the model of car, if you can not leap a local charger to reach the next one, then the radius is reduced in size. Which also means you aren't hitting that charger for local use anyway.

 

[SureValla]

Supercharging will be free, cost nothing to install the feature in the car. And is the key aspect to Tesla motors.

Totally agree. Elon knows this is the key selling point of Tesla's and viability of EV's going forward. They will be willing to take a loss on this if necessary.

Easy fix for local supercharger hogs:
Geofence the area between their residence and the local supercharger. If all driving from last charge was with in the geofences area, the supercharger is deactivated. If they drive out side of that area they can access a local supercharger to get around and home.

I don't agree on this one. You are forgetting people in apartments who don't have a place to charge at home or delivery type people who drive a lot in a day but might not go very far from home at the same time. So geofencing hurts those without a garage and pizza delivery guys.

 

[Red Sage]

Then Tesla did an about face with the release of the supercharger letters in mid-2015, so obviously Tesla itself is thinking daily use is going to be an issue.

No. The problem was not that people were using Superchargers. The problem was that people were effectively ICEing Supercharger stalls by sitting in them all day, and all night, as a personal parking space, without charging their cars. So, they were blocking those who needed to use those spaces in transit.

No, my solution is not to have absolutely no urban superchargers. It is difficult to plan a long distance route this way.

Glad to see you recognize that issue, at least. Others here have said the exact opposite. They literally want all future Superchargers to be on the open road, alone.

My solution is to have the expansion urban stations nearby be pay per use (and they won't be branded as superchargers). I'm referring to stations where Tesla 100% intended it to be used primarily by daily users (like in Hong Kong, London, Shanghai, etc where there are close to no single family homes with dedicated parking). I'm not sure if the LA stations necessarily fall into this that well (there is probably a greater mix and a large portion is still long distance travellers). For the US, probably a station right in the middle of Manhattan for example would be a good example (or for LA, right in downtown LA or West Hollywood).

Once again, this is a 'solution' to a 'problem' that does not exist, and isn't going to be. As mentioned above, the only problem is that there are some determined, entitled individuals who are [ICEHOLES] that purposefully block Supercharger stalls because 'they got a right'. Well, no, they don't. Worst case imaginable, no one should be plugged in at a Supercharger more than two hours, and no one should be in a parking space without being plugged in. When someone uses it as a camper hookup lounging during the day, or sleeping overnight, it is incredibly insensitive to the potential needs of others. That is the behavior that Tesla Motors protested. Hence, why they asked owners to be more considerate.

The long distance supercharger ideally would be built just off the highway even if inside a city (so useful for long trips and avoid traffic).

If this is a good business model, then let the guys at ChargePoint, Blink, or even Solar City do it. That should have NOTHING to do with Tesla Motors own distribution of Superchargers, offered at no charge, everywhere they exist. Even the very few Supercharger locations that are inside paid parking structures waive the parking fee if you leave within two hours.

I feel like there are lot of people in my shoes where they would want to use a supercharger 4-5 times a year, and there's no way that spending $2000 for that is worth it, yet there are circumstances where you'd be totally stuck in going someplace you need to go.

Electricity is everywhere. Tesla Motors would like to make the use of electric cars ubiquitous, not rare. As easy as possible, not inconvenient. The problem though, is that people who don't have the foresight to understand that once they own a Tesla product, they will want to drive more than they did before, will turn around and complain to high heaven that they 'never would have bought the car' if only 'they had known' how much trouble it would be to use it without Supercharger access. Better to not give these people the choice to begin with... No discount for NOT getting Supercharger access. No way to get the car without Supercharger access. You don't want to use Superchargers? Fine. Don't use them, as often as you'd like.

By the way... In terms of what's 'worth it'... What is the fuel economy of your current car? How much does gasoline cost where you live? Here in Los Angeles, $2,000 might buy you 800 gallons of gasoline. In a car that got 40 MPG, that would allow you to travel pretty far, around 32,000 miles. At 30 MPG, 24,000 miles. You'd be able to go a lot further than that in a Tesla Motors product that includes Supercharger access.

Especially with the model 3 getting maybe 50-70 miles less range.

Wait... "less range" than... WHAT?!? For a given capacity, the smaller, lighter Model ≡ will probably have a greater range than Model S. Where the Model S 60 was rated at 208 miles EPA range... A Model ≡ 60 will likely achieve something in the 225-to-250 mile range.

So what's the solution?

Maybe split the difference and offer unlimited supercharging for one price, and pay per supercharge at a lower price.

Or pay a lower price, and get 5 a year, and then it's a relatively cheap price per every other charge.

The 'solution' already exists. If you object to 'paying for fuel' included in the cost of the car, buy a BMW 3-Series, AUDI A4, or Cadillac ATS instead. Sorted.

I'm not familiar with supercharging and the Model S. From the configuration info., it is a standard option. I recall it used to be optional. I assume you need SuperCharging capability to use the Chademo Adapter.

Supercharger access has always been included in the cost of Model S 85. It was a $2,000 option on Model S 60. It was unavailable on Model S 40 because, originally, the 40 kWh capacity was not high enough to accept the power output of a Supercharger, and Tesla Motors expected its range would be too low to span all Supercharger locations on the road anyway. Later, it was decided that instead of building actually 40 kWh capacity battery packs, they would just use 60 kWh battery packs and de-rate them to 40 kWh via software. That allows for the option of upgrading from 40 kWh to 60 kWh for a fee, then having another fee to add Supercharging. The 40 kWh version was Discontinued in mid-2013 because less than 5% of buyers chose the option even as Reservations continued to climb. All that ended with the introduction of the Model S 70D in early 2015, because the Model S 60 was Discontinued at the same time. And, for the first time, every iteration of the Model S included Supercharger access by default.

Do you foresee Tesla offering 2 options in regards to Fast Charging? Perhaps $500-$1000 where you can use the Chademo Adapter (or some new design) and more for SuperCharging? Currently GM charges about $750 for SAE Combo for the Spark EV. I hope you don't need SuperCharging to get possible other types of Fast Charging. What do you think?

What I think is that Tesla Motors learned their lesson from the Model S. It is easier and simpler to just include Supercharger access and the DC Charging hardware it uses in every car you build. The $2,000 fee on Model S 60 was originally to add the DC Charging hardware to the car as it was built. Supercharger access was meant to be available to every car that was so equipped, and at no additional cost beyond the DC Charging hardware that you bought with the car. The option to include the DC Charging hardware was NOT available to those who ordered the Model S 40 at all. Once the decision was made to build the Model S 40 with a de-rated 60 kWh battery pack, that meant each car would also include the DC Charging hardware by default. When the CHAdeMO Adapter was introduced, it required Supercharger access. Apparently some Model S 60 owners protested, so there was a separate software level that allowed DC Charging, but no Supercharger access, at a lower rate. Keep in mind that the CHAdeMO Adapter also dropped in price by several hundred dollars as well. I believe that with Model ≡ Tesla Motors will want to 'Keep It Simple Stupid'. The fewer things that are options, the easier it is to build the car.

I live inside the perimeter of Atlanta, GA in Live, Work, Play environment. Our building is actually attached to a garage with several supercharges down on the 2nd level of the parking deck. This would be my charging solution as often as I needed to charge. I'd prefer to pay for Supercharging included in the cost of the car rather than pay as you charge.

Good. Luckily, that is exactly what Tesla Motors currently does.

I'm probably in the minority of people who actually have no garage and would need supercharging as their main charging option.

And, despite protests by worry warts and others who are certain the sky will fall, there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Maybe there are two option pay as you charge or pay $2000 upfront and charge as often as you'd like.

That won't be necessary at all. Just buy a car. Use Superchargers as often as you like. Wherever you like. Free of any additional fees. For the life of the car. Sorted.

You want to help out Tesla Motors' bottom line? Easy. Buy some hats, mugs, and jackets with their logo. Get every option on the car that could be of some use to you. Spend the dough to get their Extended Service Agreement. But no, there is no need to 'pay by the tank' to fill up. Tesla isn't interested in becoming 'The NeXT EXXON!'

 

[SureValla]

Supercharger access has always been included in the cost of Model S 85. It was a $2,000 option on Model S 60. It was unavailable on Model S 40 because, originally, the 40 kWh capacity was not high enough to accept the power output of a Supercharger...Later, it was decided that instead of building actually 40 kWh capacity battery packs, they would just use 60 kWh battery packs and de-rate them to 40 kWh via software.

Interesting. Due to the likely smaller size of the Model 3 do you think this will be an issue?

 

[dgpcolorado]

Interesting. Due to the likely smaller size of the Model 3 do you think this will be an issue?

Since the base Model 3 should have at least a 60 kWh battery pack — I wouldn't be surprised to see a 70 kWh pack — it will Supercharge normally, albeit somewhat more slowly than the 85-90 kWh Model S does.

 

[SureValla]

Since the base Model 3 should have at least a 60 kWh battery pack — I wouldn't be surprised to see a 70 kWh pack — it will Supercharge normally, albeit somewhat more slowly than the 85-90 kWh Model S does.

wow so since 60 kWh gives Model S 208 miles of range, one could linearlly extrapolate that a 60kWh Model 3 at 20% smaller would get 260 miles

 

[dgpcolorado]

wow so since 60 kWh gives Model S 208 miles of range, one could linearlly extrapolate that a 60kWh Model 3 at 20% smaller would get 260 miles

Not necessarily. "20% smaller" likely refers to volume, not exterior dimensions. Although there has been much speculation about the 3 having a lower Cd than the S, it remains to be seen if that is the case and, if so, how much. If the car is shorter, which is likely, that makes a lower Cd more difficult. And the frontal area figures to be only slightly lower than that of the S (it won't be "20%" lower, not even close). The somewhat lower weight of the car will have only a small impact on range; it is aerodynamic drag that makes the biggest difference.

Nevertheless, I would expect an EPA range of at least 230 to 240 miles, and likely higher as you suggested. We might, or might not, know more on March 31st. Even the numbers they give us then will be subject to change as the car moves into production.

 

[Red Sage]

Interesting. Due to the likely smaller size of the Model 3 do you think this will be an issue?

No. I expect that just as was the case between the Tesla Roadster and Model S, there will be an improvement in battery technology moving from Generation II vehicles to the Model ≡. Based upon comments from JB Straubel, these improvements will be as a result of: 1) Power Electronics; 2) Battery Chemistry; and 3) Battery Cell Dimensions for Generation III vehicles.

wow so since 60 kWh gives Model S 208 miles of range, one could linearlly extrapolate that a 60kWh Model 3 at 20% smaller would get 260 miles

My 'napkin math' does it this way... 208 divided by five equals 41.6 ... 41.6 multiplied by six equals 249.6 ... Thus, adding a 'fudge factor' allows for 225 to 250 miles of EPA rated range for a Model ≡ 60. Naturally, I could be wrong.

Doing it another way... You start with your hoped for average consumption... Say, 194 Wh per mile. Multiply that by the distance you'd like to travel at that rate... Maybe, 250 miles....? That yields 48,500 Wh, or 48.5 kWh expended. Divide that amount by 90% to get 53,888 Wh, or 53.9 kWh as an amount available prior to drivetrain losses... Divide that amount by 90% to get 59,876 Wh, or 59.9 kWh as the capacity including a measure of capacity for anti-bricking... Oh, whaddayaknow...? It turns out that rounds nicely to 60 kWh. What a coinkadink.

 

[int32_t]

In the long run it doesn't really matter. You'll be paying for Supercharger access somehow. The beauty of EVs (and what I see as likely the single biggest advantage aside from exceptional efficiency) is that they can charge anywhere on almost any electrical source. Nobody has a monopoly on your fuel source anymore! If you don't want to buy it, make it yourself with solar or wind. It's something you just can't do with an ICE ... so Supercharging is not a necessity like a gas station is. I imagine that somebody without a garage could plug in at work instead. (On the other hand, maybe only Canadians have outlets at ever parking stall ... ?)

 

[Grendal]

So I take it you also think it's unfair that it's built into the cost of the S/X for people that don't use them, right?

It was told to them up front that Supercharging was built into the cost of the car. So it is fair to an extent.

Overall, the whole point of the Supercharger network is to show that an EV can be nearly as convenient as a gas car for travelling long distances. Tesla is paying for this entire network themselves to make sure it gets done properly. Other companies would have gotten the government to cover the costs. There is $500 million study being done by the government just to DECIDE what national system might work. That study will be done in a few years.

Tesla is being pro-active. Just because their initial idea said that they would cover all the costs through sales of cars doesn't mean that after a few years they've learned there are better ways to do this.

In modern times, I don't see any reason there couldn't be different programs based on a consumers needs.

1. An overall buy in to the network with unlimited charges at unlimited stations. This is similar to the current system. A top of the line car might get this thrown in as a thank you for buying all the extras.

2. A yearly or monthly buy in based on need. Some of us don't take long distance trips regularly.

3. A "pay as you go" plan. Tesla keeps a credit card number on file and charges it when you use a Supercharger. It can be done by an app.

4. Each car comes with an allotment of time for Supercharger use on a monthly basis. You pay for the amount you exceed that amount of time. So you get some use free but pay for any excessive use.

As long as the prices aren't too crazy then I think this is reasonably fair. It also controls the usage to an extent.

Once Tesla has reached a certain point where they have built a large solar farm to cover the entire usage of the system they can switch it over to a completely free system. Their intent is there but it certainly hasn't happened yet and they have a lot of other things to do for the next decade before they can afford to do something like that.