Superchargers open to all other EVs later this year (2021)

[scubastevo80]

I suspect Tesla could care less - since they are not liable for warranty repairs on non-Tesla vehicles.



This is a neat card or two up Teslas sleeve. Tesla designs/manufactures/supports the Supercharger hardware themselves. EA and the others buy from third party manufacturers. That gives Tesla a nice cost and reliability advantage over the others when installing and maintaining a site. Additionally, Tesla builds their own integrated solar/battery storage systems which can mitigate the demand charges the power companies charge. This again gives Tesla a cost advantage over the others when it comes to energy costs.

Some Taycan owners may have a problem though. Unless Elon is hiding a super secret 800V mode, they'll have to charge in 400V compatibility mode. And unless they've ponied up for the 150 kW 400V charging option, they'll be slumming at 50 kW like a Bolt EV.

Right, but the cost advantage is ultimately for energy delivery via superchargers, which Elon has stated is not a profit center. So this does nothing for Tesla's investors, and actually is a detriment to Tesla vehicle owners in terms of wait times for road trips. Remember all of those recent pictures of people waiting in huge lines at gas stations, the ICE owners will be reverse posting those of EV owners if non-Tesla vehicles have the ability to start flocking to Tesla Superchargers.

Also, regarding the Taycan example, this just means they'll sit and charge longer and create longer waiting times for Tesla owners. I get Tesla's mission, but one of the fundamental reasons I bought 2 Teslas and ditched our ICE vehicles was for the supercharger network - the ability to do road trips somewhat painlessly in an EV. If my supercharging wait times go from 0-10 minutes to north of 30-60 minutes, then its probably no different than buying a Mach E today and being limited to non-Tesla superchargers, their costs and reliability.

 

[Earl]

. . . superchargers, which Elon has stated is not a profit center

Unless, of course, he was just referring to profit from Tesla car owners and will change this with non-Tesla cars. Or, they could still not be a profit center if he plows much of the charging revenue back into building more superchargers, possibly reducing waiting times instead of turning a profit.

 

[ArchEtech]

If I have to wait tons of extra time because a bunch of GM volts are at the superchargers I will rethink having an EV in general, but especially will rethink if my next car will be a Tesla.

 

[LoudMusic]

If I have to wait tons of extra time because a bunch of GM volts are at the superchargers I will rethink having an EV in general, but especially will rethink if my next car will be a Tesla.

They need to make the CCS adapter for us before they make one for everyone else. And it would be helpful if they included other charging networks in the navigation routing but I'm not holding my breath on that.

 

[pp61]

They need to make the CCS adapter for us before they make one for everyone else. And it would be helpful if they included other charging networks in the navigation routing but I'm not holding my breath on that.

In Europe, the Tesla’s with CCS connection or adapter (S and X). Can see other chargers too on the in-car navigation including those with supercharge capabilities. Believe the moment they provide adapters in the US the non Tesla chargers will be visible.

 

[LoudMusic]

In Europe, the Tesla’s with CCS connection or adapter (S and X). Can see other chargers too on the in-car navigation including those with supercharge capabilities. Believe the moment they provide adapters in the US the non Tesla chargers will be visible.

That's very interesting! Does it also use them in the navigation routing or are they just selectable destinations?

 

[wws]

They need to make the CCS adapter for us before they make one for everyone else. And it would be helpful if they included other charging networks in the navigation routing but I'm not holding my breath on that.

In the U.S., the Tesla nav display already shows many of the EVgo sites that have incorporated the CHAdeMO-based Tesla plugs. If you nav to one, the car will even start doing battery pack preconditioning as appropriate.

 

[pp61]

That's very interesting! Does it also use them in the navigation routing or are they just selectable destinations?

Default the car goes from supercharger to supercharger but no problem to select non Tesla charger ( also charge details are mentioned, number of ports, max kW etc)

 

[RTPEV]

If I have to wait tons of extra time because a bunch of GM volts are at the superchargers I will rethink having an EV in general, but especially will rethink if my next car will be a Tesla.

I've said it before, but is it somehow different if you have to wait tons of extra time because a bunch of Tesla Model 3's and Y's that Tesla sold after you bought yours are the reason for your wait?

Not trying to give Tesla a free pass here. They are responsible for ensuring that the network is sized adequately to accommodate whatever market they choose to serve, whether those vehicles have a Tesla badge or otherwise. But singling out single brands seems elitist to me (and alarmist as well, considering the sales volumes of Bolts vs. Teslas in this specific case).

 

[ArchEtech]

If Tesla suddenly opens the Superchargers they will have doubled the load or more overnight for every location. This would also include plug in hybrids of which there are also a lot of on the road. Lower cost, non optimized Teslas will also charge much slower in some cases.

Literally zero upside for Tesla owners.

 

[Ostrichsak]

I've said it before, but is it somehow different if you have to wait tons of extra time because a bunch of Tesla Model 3's and Y's that Tesla sold after you bought yours are the reason for your wait?

Not trying to give Tesla a free pass here. They are responsible for ensuring that the network is sized adequately to accommodate whatever market they choose to serve, whether those vehicles have a Tesla badge or otherwise. But singling out single brands seems elitist to me (and alarmist as well, considering the sales volumes of Bolts vs. Teslas in this specific case).

Kind of like you just did by singling out Model 3's and Y's? Pot kettle, kettle pot.

I think you can safely say that ANY wait at a Supercharger location is annoying. We're in agreement that Tesla needs to pace network expansion with demands for charging but, as we've already seen with the service solution they deem adequate, this likely will also end in disaster.

 

[RTPEV]

If Tesla suddenly opens the Superchargers they will have doubled the load or more overnight for every location. This would also include plug in hybrids of which there are also a lot of on the road. Lower cost, non optimized Teslas will also charge much slower in some cases.

Literally zero upside for Tesla owners.

If we are talking about the US, this is simply not true, and again, an alarmist view. It will take time to open up Superchargers to other vehicles. It will not happen overnight. They will have to outfit sites with adapters, and even then, it's not clear whether all stalls will be outfitted, or perhaps just one or a few at each site. We just don't know yet. And I would also expect a staged rollout as well, similar to what they are doing in Europe. A small scale pilot and expansion if & when it makes sense to do so.

As for the plug-in hybrids using Superchargers, let me know how many plug-in hybrids are outfitted with CCS ports that would even be capable of using a Supercharger.

As for the upside, again I feel like I am repeating myself, but I see two upsides. First, opening up the network to more sources of revenue helps fund the expansion of the network, and all drivers will benefit from that. Obviously Tesla will need to make sure that the expansion happens--not letting them off the hook there--but with a bigger market to serve, the network can grow faster and bigger.

As for the second upside, I will illustrate by way of a counter-example. Eventually, as automakers finally come around to producing EVs in large numbers, Tesla will no longer be the dominant brand it is today. Not saying they won't be the frontrunner, but with an annual worldwide sales volume of 80 million vehicles/year, unless you see Tesla expanding to the point where they are making 40 million vehicles per year (a 40X increase of where they are today, and 4X over today's leading automakers), less than half of the EVs on the road in the future will be Tesla. This means that in the future, an entity like a convenience store or grocery store or restaurant or whatever that is faced with a choice of what kind of charging station to install, and if Tesla remains proprietary, they can choose a proprietary Supercharger which locks out over half of their potential customers (a more likely figure would be 80%), or a non-Tesla fast charger that would potentially serve 100% of EVs (assuming Tesla eventually comes out with their CCS adapter). Which do you think they will choose if they are trying to attract as many customers as possible to their business? Flipped back around, the benefit to Tesla owners having a more open Supercharger network is that there are more sites that would consider hosting a Supercharger that is open, versus hosting an unreliable, expensive, and low power site that at least is open to everyone.

 

[RTPEV]

Kind of like you just did by singling out Model 3's and Y's? Pot kettle, kettle pot.

I think you can safely say that ANY wait at a Supercharger location is annoying. We're in agreement that Tesla needs to pace network expansion with demands for charging but, as we've already seen with the service solution they deem adequate, this likely will also end in disaster.

It wasn't ME that singled out the Model 3's and Y's, I was merely echoing the sentiment that @ArchEtech implied that somehow waiting for Teslas would be okay. Okay, I did say 3's and Y's rather than saying all Teslas, merely based on the fact that sales volume wise it would be far more likely that the cars clogging up a Supercharger are going to be 3's and Y's, but if you feel that I unfairly singled out 3's and Y's, then fine, I'll change my statement to 3's, Y's, S'x, X's, Cybertrucks and any future vehicles they may have.

 

[LoudMusic]

In the U.S., the Tesla nav display already shows many of the EVgo sites that have incorporated the CHAdeMO-based Tesla plugs. If you nav to one, the car will even start doing battery pack preconditioning as appropriate.

That's good to know it'll do preconditioning! Will it select these sites as part of a multi-stop charging option? There are a couple spots I've found using ABRP and PlugShare that a CCS location would provide a much faster route than using only Superchargers.

 

[Ostrichsak]

It wasn't ME that singled out the Model 3's and Y's, I was merely echoing the sentiment that @ArchEtech implied that somehow waiting for Teslas would be okay. Okay, I did say 3's and Y's rather than saying all Teslas, merely based on the fact that sales volume wise it would be far more likely that the cars clogging up a Supercharger are going to be 3's and Y's, but if you feel that I unfairly singled out 3's and Y's, then fine, I'll change my statement to 3's, Y's, S'x, X's, Cybertrucks and any future vehicles they may have.

I didn't "feel" anything so I'm not sure how you read tone in anything I just said. If we're going to talk about Supercharger network availability in universal terms (per your correction) it seems that we shouldn't single out other Teslas either. Regardless of what cars Tesla determines are capable of using the Supercharger network it's ultimately up to them to make sure that supply meets demand. We know that Tesla doesn't have a very good track record of this simple concept so I'm not confident that they will do a 180 on this particular example either. I think that the dream (because that's all it is at this point) of tripling the network this year still won't meet demand if they open them to EVERY EV that's about to start hitting the streets. That's going to be quite a bit larger of a number than Tesla has managed to sell to this point. I also don't believe they will triple the network as stated so I have a feeling that one of the biggest selling points of owning a Tesla is about to become a negative rather than a positive. I feel like we were just finally starting to get some needed locations with many more still required to comfortably travel the US and capacity issues still remain at the more popular locations. Tesla picked a poor time to open this up since they can't meet current demand with their supply. Certainly more demand for service won't help this.

 

[LoudMusic]

I didn't "feel" anything so I'm not sure how you read tone in anything I just said. If we're going to talk about Supercharger network availability in universal terms (per your correction) it seems that we shouldn't single out other Teslas either. Regardless of what cars Tesla determines are capable of using the Supercharger network it's ultimately up to them to make sure that supply meets demand. We know that Tesla doesn't have a very good track record of this simple concept so I'm not confident that they will do a 180 on this particular example either. I think that the dream (because that's all it is at this point) of tripling the network this year still won't meet demand if they open them to EVERY EV that's about to start hitting the streets. That's going to be quite a bit larger of a number than Tesla has managed to sell to this point. I also don't believe they will triple the network as stated so I have a feeling that one of the biggest selling points of owning a Tesla is about to become a negative rather than a positive. I feel like we were just finally starting to get some needed locations with many more still required to comfortably travel the US and capacity issues still remain at the more popular locations. Tesla picked a poor time to open this up since they can't meet current demand with their supply. Certainly more demand for service won't help this.

I've only had to wait for a Supercharger stall one time out of probably more than 150 visits, and that was for less than 5 minutes. I've had to wait MANY times at gas stations and find the overall inconvenience rather minimal.

The total additional EVs that are coming to market in North America are actually a tiny fraction of the number of Teslas. Further, they for the most part have too small of batteries to make extended road trips. And of the ones that can, I suspect the percentage that do make road trips is miniscule - similar to the number of Teslas that actually make road trips. And they'll have to purchase the adapter, which I suspect will be rather off-putting to most EV owners. Also the CCS options are growing rapidly providing dramatically improved options as well. There are already vastly more CCS sites than Tesla sites in Colorado.

I do agree Tesla have been over promising and under delivering on ... well ... everything. But their Supercharger rollout has dramatically increased in the past two years. In November 2021 they opened FOURTY-FIVE Supercharger locations in the United States. Their promise to triple the network is laughable, but the rate of increase I believe is out pacing the increase of demand. Even considering additional non-Tesla EVs joining the user base. Actually, if they considering a CCS adapter to be adding to the charging network, then *maybe* they'll triple the network

EDIT: Furthermore, the 'urban' CCS locations are commonly in Target and Walmart type parking lots which makes them SUPER convenient for EV owners who are unable to charge at home. They can plug in while they're shopping and be good to go by the time they've checked out. Tesla could benefit from this.

 

[Ostrichsak]

I've only had to wait for a Supercharger stall one time out of probably more than 150 visits, and that was for less than 5 minutes. I've had to wait MANY times at gas stations and find the overall inconvenience rather minimal.

The total additional EVs that are coming to market in North America are actually a tiny fraction of the number of Teslas. Further, they for the most part have too small of batteries to make extended road trips. And of the ones that can, I suspect the percentage that do make road trips is miniscule - similar to the number of Teslas that actually make road trips. And they'll have to purchase the adapter, which I suspect will be rather off-putting to most EV owners. Also the CCS options are growing rapidly providing dramatically improved options as well. There are already vastly more CCS sites than Tesla sites in Colorado.

I do agree Tesla have been over promising and under delivering on ... well ... everything. But their Supercharger rollout has dramatically increased in the past two years. In November 2021 they opened FOURTY-FIVE Supercharger locations in the United States. Their promise to triple the network is laughable, but the rate of increase I believe is out pacing the increase of demand. Even considering additional non-Tesla EVs joining the user base. Actually, if they considering a CCS adapter to be adding to the charging network, then *maybe* they'll triple the network

EDIT: Furthermore, the 'urban' CCS locations are commonly in Target and Walmart type parking lots which makes them SUPER convenient for EV owners who are unable to charge at home. They can plug in while they're shopping and be good to go by the time they've checked out. Tesla could benefit from this.

Your post assumes I was complaining about wait times at Superchargers which I was not. I was merely playing into the speculation conversation. As for your comment about a small fraction of EVs coming to market... Tesla has sold fewer than 2mil total vehicles to date. That's two quarters worth of production for Ford alone. Do you think that once the big players start producing vehicles that they won't quickly eclipse Tesla in total numbers if the demand is there? I think there is some data to support people's fear that wait times could increase in the near future, especially given Tesla's atrocious track record for meeting demand at the pace of ramp-up for everything they've ever done.

 

[LoudMusic]

Your post assumes I was complaining about wait times at Superchargers which I was not. I was merely playing into the speculation conversation. As for your comment about a small fraction of EVs coming to market... Tesla has sold fewer than 2mil total vehicles to date. That's two quarters worth of production for Ford alone. Do you think that once the big players start producing vehicles that they won't quickly eclipse Tesla in total numbers if the demand is there? I think there is some data to support people's fear that wait times could increase in the near future, especially given Tesla's atrocious track record for meeting demand at the pace of ramp-up for everything they've ever done.

I really don't think Ford, et al, will be converting their production to EV any time soon. They'll have a few EV options that they sell in small quantities for a couple decades. And in the time it takes them to ramp up models and production the public charging options will grow along with them.

Are there charging delays during non-holiday times? When / where are these delays? I suspect Tesla have already resolved the bulk of the concerns. They doubled Kettleman, and have added in many more sites to fill in along routes on both coasts.

I also think non-Tesla owners would prefer to use CCS but like the idea of having Tesla Superchargers as an option. Same as Tesla owners like the idea of having CHAdeMO as an option, and are now excited about having a CCS adapter. When I own a non-Tesla EV I suspect I will charge it exclusively at CCS (or home or L2).

 

[RTPEV]

I didn't "feel" anything so I'm not sure how you read tone in anything I just said.

Just this:

Kind of like you just did by singling out Model 3's and Y's? Pot kettle, kettle pot.

Not "tone", but apparently you felt that you needed to call me out for singling out Model 3's and Y's, so I added further clarification.

Actually, after the revision of my statement to include future Cybertrucks, I think it makes the statement even more powerfully. Should we as current Tesla owners be upset with Tesla because they are about to release a barrage of Cybertrucks upon us in 2023 (with bigger batteries that will mean they are tying up stalls longer than the current average), while supposedly not increasing Supercharger capacity to match?

 

[RTPEV]

The total additional EVs that are coming to market in North America are actually a tiny fraction of the number of Teslas.

This I agree with, at least for the next few years. Not just the number that are COMING to market, but the ones that are already one the road.

Further, they for the most part have too small of batteries to make extended road trips. And of the ones that can, I suspect the percentage that do make road trips is miniscule - similar to the number of Teslas that actually make road trips.

This I have to disagree with to a point.

Yes, the Nissan LEAF+ and the Chevy Bolt are good examples of what I would call regional cars. Not really good for long distance travel. But any of the current crop of vehicles that support 250 mile range AND 100+ kW charging speeds can serve as longer distance road trip cars. Case in point: my wife and I took her VW ID.4 on an 1800 mile road this past summer, and while it wasn't quite as convenient as the Tesla (road tripping in the Tesla has become so routine that we needed a challenge!) we managed just fine. The main issues (there were two) were too small (only 4 stall) Electrify America sites that were either overcrowded or had one broken stall that immediately rendered the site at 75% capacity. Otherwise, our stops were 25-30 minutes instead of 15-20, but it felt quite normal.

Would we have preferred to stop at a Supercharger? Yes, in two instances: one, because we did have to divert our route once due to lack of CCS charging on I-81 in central PA, and second due to a massively overcrowded 4-stall site in Bedford, PA. Otherwise we would be find sticking with EA due to the fact that we get free charging for 3 years (after that time though, it really does come down to convenience and capacity).

And this is with a car that has 260 miles of range. Any of the upcoming cars that can do 300+ miles at 150kW charge rates will be more capable of road tripping that the original Model S's. The Mustang Mach-E, Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 are all going to be worthy road-trippers if their respective manufacturers make sufficient numbers of them.