Superchargers open to all other EVs later this year (2021)

[Ostrichsak]

Just this:



Not "tone", but apparently you felt that you needed to call me out for singling out Model 3's and Y's, so I added further clarification.

Actually, after the revision of my statement to include future Cybertrucks, I think it makes the statement even more powerfully. Should we as current Tesla owners be upset with Tesla because they are about to release a barrage of Cybertrucks upon us in 2023 (with bigger batteries that will mean they are tying up stalls longer than the current average), while supposedly not increasing Supercharger capacity to match?

So you don't see the hypocrisy with calling out another member for calling out non-Tesla (as if their need for charging is inferior to yours) specifically while you call out Model 3/Y (as if their need is also inferior to yours) specifically in a discussion about Supercharger availability? You claim to not have a stance here and yet defend your non-stance again towards me. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

For the record, my only statement was an attempt to point out that the important metric here was stall availability. It really doesn't matter what vehicle is using them if they provide enough to meet demand. Not sure the petty bickering about what vehicles are more worthy of the stall if availability isn't there is even necessary.

You continue using words like "feel" while simultaneously assuming my tone & thoughts to fuel your fire. Maybe you should just stop doing that and not assume everyone is out to pick a fight with you on the world wide web.

 

[LoudMusic]

This I agree with, at least for the next few years. Not just the number that are COMING to market, but the ones that are already one the road.


This I have to disagree with to a point.

Yes, the Nissan LEAF+ and the Chevy Bolt are good examples of what I would call regional cars. Not really good for long distance travel. But any of the current crop of vehicles that support 250 mile range AND 100+ kW charging speeds can serve as longer distance road trip cars. Case in point: my wife and I took her VW ID.4 on an 1800 mile road this past summer, and while it wasn't quite as convenient as the Tesla (road tripping in the Tesla has become so routine that we needed a challenge!) we managed just fine. The main issues (there were two) were too small (only 4 stall) Electrify America sites that were either overcrowded or had one broken stall that immediately rendered the site at 75% capacity. Otherwise, our stops were 25-30 minutes instead of 15-20, but it felt quite normal.

Would we have preferred to stop at a Supercharger? Yes, in two instances: one, because we did have to divert our route once due to lack of CCS charging on I-81 in central PA, and second due to a massively overcrowded 4-stall site in Bedford, PA. Otherwise we would be find sticking with EA due to the fact that we get free charging for 3 years (after that time though, it really does come down to convenience and capacity).

And this is with a car that has 260 miles of range. Any of the upcoming cars that can do 300+ miles at 150kW charge rates will be more capable of road tripping that the original Model S's. The Mustang Mach-E, Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 are all going to be worthy road-trippers if their respective manufacturers make sufficient numbers of them.

That's a fair argument, but aren't most of these cars being offered in different battery capacities? I suspect that the "sufficient numbers" will be further reduced by people buying small battery versions of these vehicles. And I really don't see the big brands seriously changing to electric vehicles any time soon. Certainly not in ten years. Maybe they'll be to half their production in twenty years.

I don't know - time will tell. I want to see more people who can charge at home to buy electric vehicles. That way the EV fleet is bigger and road tripping charging stations are more in demand so more get built. Then more regional charging will get built such as grocery stores and events venues, and people who are unable to charge at home will have someone to charge on their weekly routines.

 

[RTPEV]

That's a fair argument, but aren't most of these cars being offered in different battery capacities? I suspect that the "sufficient numbers" will be further reduced by people buying small battery versions of these vehicles. And I really don't see the big brands seriously changing to electric vehicles any time soon. Certainly not in ten years. Maybe they'll be to half their production in twenty years.

Oh gosh, if they don't achieve 50% of their vehicles being acceptable (and by that I mean 270-280+ miles of range) by 2028, I really think they will be out of business in 20 years. I expect that by 2025, 300 mile EVs will achieve price parity with ICE, and at that point it's going to be pretty hard to convince people to buy an ICE if there is an EV that is the same or cheaper. And with incentives, we are pretty much already there today. About the only thing holding back truly widespread adoption is simply battery supply chains and manufacturing capacity.

You may be right about some automakers dragging their heels and not ramping up quickly, but given the number of up and coming battery and automakers in the far east that ARE trying desperately to ramp up, if the legacy automakers don't adapt, they will simply be overtaken by the up and comers.

 

[Rocky_H]

So you don't see the hypocrisy with calling out another member for calling out non-Tesla (as if their need for charging is inferior to yours) specifically while you call out Model 3/Y (as if their need is also inferior to yours) specifically in a discussion about Supercharger availability?

And I do not either, because that is not at all what he said. He NEVER implied anyone had any inferiority of charging need. YOU made that up so you could accuse him of something.

For the record, my only statement was an attempt to point out that the important metric here was stall availability. It really doesn't matter what vehicle is using them if they provide enough to meet demand.

Wow. That was exactly the point he made. Someone made some complaint about how there'd BETTER NOT BE CHEVYS IN THOSE STALLS!! And @RTPEV was pointing out how currently it's just Teslas in Tesla stalls, so why would it matter what's there creating a wait?

 

[Kevy Baby]

I've only had to wait for a Supercharger stall one time out of probably more than 150 visits, and that was for less than 5 minutes. I've had to wait MANY times at gas stations and find the overall inconvenience rather minimal.

Comparing gas-station waits to EV charging waits is a false equivalency. The majority of ICE buckets can be fueled up in under 5 minutes, including time to get out of the car, pay, etc. While you could experience a 5-minute bump charge in an EV (I've seen it on a few ABRP trips), they are the exception and not the rule. I haven't seen any stats published before, but I would guess the average SuC charge time visit is between 15-30 minutes per vehicle.

 

[Kevy Baby]

I will admit that I didn't read the entire thread, but there is one other large hurdle in opening up SuC's to non-Tesla vehicles: payment. All our vehicles are tied to a payment system, so it is covered. How easy will it be to collect payment on non-Tesla vehicles? Will they be able to attach a payment to other vehicles or will they have to set up payment methods at the podium?

 

[miimura]

I will admit that I didn't read the entire thread, but there is one other large hurdle in opening up SuC's to non-Tesla vehicles: payment. All our vehicles are tied to a payment system, so it is covered. How easy will it be to collect payment on non-Tesla vehicles? Will they be able to attach a payment to other vehicles or will they have to set up payment methods at the podium?

The trial in the Netherlands requires using the Tesla app, where the user can enter their payment information. The app also allows you to choose the stall to initiate the charging session.

Later, Tesla will have to provide a display or multiple displays at the site to show the charging cost and provide standard on-site payment systems to comply with California regulations for dispensing vehicle fuel.

 

[LoudMusic]

The trial in the Netherlands requires using the Tesla app, where the user can enter their payment information. The app also allows you to choose the stall to initiate the charging session.

Later, Tesla will have to provide a display or multiple displays at the site to show the charging cost and provide standard on-site payment systems to comply with California regulations for dispensing vehicle fuel.

That's in EU where the plug is the same. In the the US they could put logic into the adapter and have it do the same identification that our cars do at Superchargers.

 

[ArchEtech]

Most of the superchargers are in larger markets with the most non Tesla EV already on the road. They will have a higher load once non Teslas are allowed access even for day to day use.

I guarantee people will be topping their Plug in hybrids at superchargers so they can get home without using gas.

 

[miimura]

That's in EU where the plug is the same. In the the US they could put logic into the adapter and have it do the same identification that our cars do at Superchargers.

Tesla said they would provide adapters at North American Superchargers for non-Tesla vehicles to use. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to tie the user or payment info to the adapter.

 

[miimura]

Most of the superchargers are in larger markets with the most non Tesla EV already on the road. They will have a higher load once non Teslas are allowed access even for day to day use.

I guarantee people will be topping their Plug in hybrids at superchargers so they can get home without using gas.

Unlikely. There are very few PHEVs that can even take in DC power from a fast charger. In fact, the Outlander PHEV is the only one I can think of that has a DCFC port. That one is CHAdeMO, so it's unlikely to be supported on Superchargers.

I don't count the i3 REx because it's really an EV first.

 

[LoudMusic]

Tesla said they would provide adapters at North American Superchargers for non-Tesla vehicles to use. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to tie the user or payment info to the adapter.

Ah interesting. Yeah that'll just be some kind of physical adapter - no brains in the adapter itself.

 

[TunaBug]

That's in EU where the plug is the same. In the the US they could put logic into the adapter and have it do the same identification that our cars do at Superchargers.

Does CCS communicate a VIN or some sort of unique identifier to the charger? That would be the first thing required for the Tesla user experience.

I mean standard CCS. Not Tesla's implementation for Europe where they have apparently added that to the protocol to enable automatic billing.

 

[e of pi]

Does CCS communicate a VIN or some sort of unique identifier to the charger? That would be the first thing required for the Tesla user experience.

I mean standard CCS. Not Tesla's implementation for Europe where they have apparently added that to the protocol to enable automatic billing.

Yeah, American CCS supports Plug-and-Charge identification, at least on certain models (like the Mach-E).

Electric vehicle (EV) charging standards and how they differ

 

[RTPEV]

Comparing gas-station waits to EV charging waits is a false equivalency. The majority of ICE buckets can be fueled up in under 5 minutes, including time to get out of the car, pay, etc. While you could experience a 5-minute bump charge in an EV (I've seen it on a few ABRP trips), they are the exception and not the rule. I haven't seen any stats published before, but I would guess the average SuC charge time visit is between 15-30 minutes per vehicle.

I'd agree with the 15-30 minute per vehicle for Supercharging sessions. I'd even bump that up to 20-30 minutes average stop.

For road trips in an ICE car though, I don't agree with the "under 5 minutes" metric. I used my Google timeline to track several road trips from the years before I had my Tesla so I could actually analyze my travel patterns so I could quantify the effect of ICE vs. EV. I found out that every single gas station stop we made was exactly 11 minutes. It was so consistent it's almost scary. That of course includes time to fiddle with your card at the pump, actually pump the gas, and then at least in our case go in to use the restroom and grab a coffee or soda and pay for it. Now I usually do try to move my car before going into the store, but that's certainly not a universal habit. In fact, one time when I was at a Sheetz charging my car, to kill some time I went and sat and watched the cars pulling up to the pump and timed several of them. Not a single one took less than 10 minutes, and these weren't even people on a road trip that went into the store. It just seemed to take them a lot of time, and even when they were done pumping gas, they still sat in their cars doing who knows what! Maybe if there was a line at the pumps they might have hurried along more, but in general, I don't really buy the "5 minute refuel".

Granted, I don't think that's your point. I think your point is that the throughput at a gas station is helped by the fact that fueling sessions are generally shorter. If I compare large gas stations with 6-8 islands and 12-16 pumps, with an 8-stall Supercharger, I'd agree. But a lot of the Supercharger congestion that happens around the holidays is already at the larger Supercharger sites. If you have a 24-stall Supercharger, with a 24-minute average charging session, you will still have a stall opening up once per minute.

I know there's a lot of caveats in the above paragraph. But it illustrates the mark that Tesla needs to achieve. Look at the peak utilization for a particular site and set a goal of say a max 5 minute wait for a stall to open up. Based on average charge times, you should be able to work out how many stalls you need at that site to meet your goal. And if you are not meeting it, then the site either needs to expand, or other nearby sites installed to relieve the pressure on that site. This is all data that Tesla probably has easy access to, and they can specifically target their expansion to areas that need help, while most of the more remote 8-stall sites that rarely have 2-3 cars charging at once can easily accommodate additional usage.

 

[LoudMusic]

And if you are not meeting it, then the site either needs to expand, or other nearby sites installed to relieve the pressure on that site.

Other sites nearby!

I think it's cool that they build massive Supercharger locations and certainly some are warranted, but spreading out the sites provides a lot of advantages. Multiple route options, reduced in/out congestion, power supply redundancy, improved variety of walkable neighbor options, marketability of more sites ...

A 48 stall location is cool. Four 12 stall locations spread over a 20 mile area are more useful.

 

[Earl]

A 48 stall location is cool. Four 12 stall locations spread over a 20 mile area are more useful.

I understand what you are saying and why. That makes sense from a Supercharger-coverage perspective. However, when capacity is the big issues, there is a "queuing efficiency" to co-locating the scarce resource to enable a "single-server single-queue" scheme. With 100 Supercharger stalls, assuming 25 minute average charging time, there will be a stall open up every 15 seconds. That makes even a long line move forward fairly quickly and be tolerable. If you navigate to such a station, you won't have to guess which of the other nearby stations may have a shorter wait time or whether to pull out of line to go to a different one.
In places like I-5 in central CA, where there are thousands of Teslas driving all the time, there are starting to be Superchargers at most exits (which aren't spaced ever 20 miles). Many of these have 40 or more Supercharger stalls. This, of course, is the real end-game. At the Sacramento to LA and SF to LA mid-point, Harris Ranch (20 soon to be 100 stalls) and Kettleman City (40, soon to be 95 stalls) are only about 27 miles apart and Firebaugh (56 stalls) is only 35 miles farther.
If you haven't been there, despite being a a bland, hot, dry, dusty, smelly area, it's an EV lovers' mecca.

 

[Kevy Baby]

For road trips in an ICE car though, I don't agree with the "under 5 minutes" metric.

I was talking purely time at the pump, from when one pulls up (to the pump, NOT when pulls off the highway or gets in line) until one departs. Unless you are making runs into a convenience store or other additional time-adding activities (including having to go inside to pay, which shouldn't really be necessary), there is no reason for a fuel stop to be longer than 5 minutes or thereabouts for an equivalent (to Tesla) passenger vehicle.

Max passenger vehicle fuel flow is 10 gallons per minute (and I know Costco has most if not all of there's set at this maximum) and average is somewhere around 6-8 gallons per minute (I could never find a definitive metric on this). Most passenger vehicles are under 20 gallons*, so even a slow 6 GPM pump can fill a tank in about 3 minutes in pump time alone.

Yes, I have waited in lines that significantly added to that ~5 minute metric, but that's a separate matter.

*Yes, there are some larger SUVS and Pickups such as the Ford F-350 with tanks over 40 gallons, but those aren't comparable that anything Tesla currently offers

 

[Kevy Baby]

On a separate topic, I take umbrage with much of ABRP's trips. One thing I don't think it factors in well enough is the time it takes to actually get off the highway and drive to the SuC (and reverse afterwards). There are many "five minute stops" that ADD several minutes of surface street with signals navigation.

 

[ThomasD]

They could build supercharger stations with 24 hour access to bathrooms and snacks. There is large race track gas stating going up in Elizabethtown KY off of 65. Tesla could build something like that off of highways.