Superchargers to be limited in future? coming to McDonalds?

[dirkhh]

How can anyone be a freeloader if they use a resource that they paid for?
You may not like it. You may think they are abusing the system. But they are not freeloading.

 

[JohnQ]

How can anyone be a freeloader if they use a resource that they paid for?
You may not like it. You may think they are abusing the system. But they are not freeloading.

Disagreement with the word "freeloader" is of little importance. While not completely synonymous, feel free to substitute: inconsiderate, rude, selfish. The thinking is that they are breaking a social contract by abusing a resource that others might need and therefore creating an inconvenience. I happen to think that's true, but you can't legislate courtesy and respect. As stated before, there are only two ways to solve the problem unless supply significantly increases: sufficient peer pressure and education (difficult and of questionable efficacy) or a per use fee that would discourage those who don't absolutely need to charge (won't happen for those who have already purchased and unlikely for future Model S purchasers).

So, we live with the problem until we understand how big a problem it is. Most of what I've heard is anecdotal. Once it can be quantified and the level of inconvenience determined then Tesla can decide if "drastic" measures are needed. In the meantime, I will follow the education route. It won't change everyone's behavior, but it can move the needle.

 

[Johan]

My 2 cents: I have an "unlimited databplan" on my phone. Turns out it's not really unlimited, there's a "fair usage policy" which says that my speed is capped if I exceed 20 Gb in a month. No probs for me - for me and 99% of others in practice it means unlimited.

I know Tesla have, currently, no such wording/terms when it comes to use of Superchargers.

My proposal: Tesla can monitor use of Superchargers (and they should). If there is a customer who does Supercharge very frequently and one particular SC I think Tesla should just call him up and say: "Hey guy, we notice you are charging very frequently at the XXX SC. Do you do a lot of long distance travel? Do you live in a condo or simlar where you don't have access to over-night charging?" ("Or are you just a cheap bastard?" This last question you don't say out loud but it's kind of implied). I think the majority will fall in to the first two categories. If it's long distance commuter then fair game - go for it! If it's someone with no home charging then Tesla could engage and try to help this person find a solution. For the last few that are just cheap-skates I think there is no way to get to those people, but maybe the novelty will wear off?

All in all I think it's really important to honor the "free forever" promise, just build more charging spots!

 

[Kipernicus]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a LAX Tesla Limo service, with headquarters right next to the Hawthorne supercharger.

 

[wraithnot]

My proposal: Tesla can monitor use of Superchargers (and they should). If there is a customer who does Supercharge very frequently and one particular SC I think Tesla should just call him up and say: "Hey guy, we notice you are charging very frequently at the XXX SC. Do you do a lot of long distance travel? Do you live in a condo or simlar where you don't have access to over-night charging?" ("Or are you just a cheap bastard?" This last question you don't say out loud but it's kind of implied).

I think that's a great idea! As long as the communication has a positive spin to it (e.g. we noticed you are making frequent use of a specific supercharger and we wanted to reach out and see if we could be of assistance in helping you access convenient charging at home) it shouldn't piss anybody off too much. Although I also like my idea of giving locals who frequently use a specific supercharger a lower priority when they are sharing a charging stack with someone on a road trip.

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I wouldn't be surprised to see a LAX Tesla Limo service, with headquarters right next to the Hawthorne supercharger.

I visited the Hawthorne supercharger on a Saturday a few weeks ago and at one point there were a total of eight cars there (four charging and four waiting). One of the cars that was waiting gave up and drove off after about half an hour- I assume they were a local since my personal choices were either to wait or get a tow truck to take me the rest of the way to Buellton when I ran out of juice.

But what took the cake was the guy who said he was there charging his boss's car. The owner was not only a local- he didn't even have to wait himself since he sent his employee to do the charging!

 

[NoMoGas]

No we can not. The first time I get to a supercharger I need that is blocked by a bunch of freeloaders who could more easily charge at home but are not doing so because they are cheap I will be annoyed with how rude they are, and how stupid Tesla is for allowing them to block access to a resource I *need* and I *paid* for.

Wow. That took a dark turn. That's all I have to say.

 

[stevezzzz]

But what took the cake was the guy who said he was there charging his boss's car. The owner was not only a local- he didn't even have to wait himself since he sent his employee to do the charging!

OK, I think in this case we can say it: freeloader! But talk about irrational behavior, this is costing the boss real money. A Tesla owner would not have to pay himself cash money to sit at a Supercharger, but he's certainly paying his employee more than the free electricity is worth, not to mention putting extra miles on the car and cycles on the battery pack. Any way you look at it, it makes no sense. And if I was the guy waiting behind his car at the Supercharger so I could get charged and back on the road to somewhere...well, I'm not an irascible guy, but even I have limits.

 

[montgom626]

entire thread is complete, total, rampant speculation

This entire thread is complete, total, rampant speculation. There is not a shred of evidence that TM will ever limit SC use. None. Nada. Zip.

So why so much discussion about something that is a complete and total fantasy? Don't we have anything more substantive to talk about that has some truth to it?

 

[stevezzzz]

I visited the Hawthorne supercharger on a Saturday a few weeks ago and at one point there were a total of eight cars there (four charging and four waiting). One of the cars that was waiting gave up and drove off after about half an hour- I assume they were a local since my personal choices were either to wait or get a tow truck to take me the rest of the way to Buellton when I ran out of juice.

The seeds of a solution are right there: figure out a way to make locals wait for transients who need a charge to get where they're going. If they're willing to accept a lower priority, more power to them. If not, they'll leave. It's still free Supercharging, just maybe not so convenient when the Supercharger station is busy.

As for how to implement a prioritization scheme, the earlier post which suggested giving a transient car max power from a charger stack even if a local car plugged in first would go a long way.

 

[Electroman]

Don't like 'freeloader' ? How about cheapskate ?

My company is planning on installing an L2 EV station and I am begging them to install it in the most undesirable location in my multi storied parking lot and more so charge some really hefty money to use the service. I have suggested as much as $2 per hour, anytime they are plugged even after their charging is completed. I am worried about the I-Will-Just-Drive-The-Prius crowd parked and plugged in the whole day, even though they would have finished charging in about an hour, when I am in my Leaf absolutely needing an hour of charge atleast to get back home.

 

[AudubonB]

Using this discussion as a means to examine homo oikoinomos is interesting enough in itself, but what about looking at the situation from the point of an engineer? To wit: if there exist in a given year in North America X number of Teslas, driving a combined total of Y distance that year, how many kWh of electricity will be consumed? And how many SC sites will be necessary to satisfy Z percentage of that demand?

With a minimal amount of data processing, TM will know to a good degree of certainty how much excess/lack of charging sites there are at any location. Now, if the SC build-out is NOT commensurate with vehicle sales - and use patterns - then sure as shooting clams in a bucket, the aforementioned Tragedy Of The Commons most definitely will rear its ugly butt-head... and the above-discussed PR problem also will need be addressed. Otherwise, all that is being discussed here will remain a hypothetical, or otherwise rarely-encountered, phenomenon.

 

[scottf200]

The seeds of a solution are right there: figure out a way to make locals wait for transients who need a charge to get where they're going. If they're willing to accept a lower priority, more power to them. If not, they'll leave. It's still free Supercharging, just maybe not so convenient when the Supercharger station is busy.

As for how to implement a prioritization scheme, the earlier post which suggested giving a transient car max power from a charger stack even if a local car plugged in first would go a long way.

Locals abusing it does not seem sustainable and would be very annoying if I were traveling with family and friends and sitting in a long queue because of the locals.

I very much like the prioritization scheme and local queue. So travelers needing it over locals [ab]using it.

Consider also the more you locals [ab]use it the slower it charges. Hey you are still technically getting a free charge as promised when you bought the car. So what if by the end of the month it is like as 120v NEMA 5-20.

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Using this discussion as a means to examine homo oikoinomos is interesting enough in itself...

homo economicus? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus)

In economics, homo economicus, or economic human, is the concept in many economic theories of humans as rational and narrowly self-interested actors who have the ability to make judgments toward their subjectively defined ends. Using these rational assessments, homo economicus attempts to maximize utility as a consumer and economic profit as a producer.[SUP][1][/SUP] This theory stands in contrast to the concept of homo reciprocans, which states that human beings are primarily motivated by the desire to be cooperative and to improve their environment.

 

[Larry Chanin]

What do you think Tesla said to the Gulf Coast mall when they pitched the idea? That they should just allow them to be put there for environmental purposes? You can't do much shopping or dining in 20 minutes.

From the PSL article:



Musk says that Tesla will continue to increase the number of stalls over time, so that overcrowding will not be an issue. But unless they are just going to put these at rest stops, patronage of the local restaurants and other businesses will be a key point to their rollout. I would plan for 2 hours of time for each slot, which means 1.5 hours of time taking up the slot without charging.

Some of the ideas presented in another thread about ways to charge independent of where you are parked would be a good solution. But taking away the ability for the businesses to benefit economically will only hurt. And 20 minutes is not enough.

Ron,

It doesn't hurt the businesses for Model S owners to exercise courtsey and move their cars when they have an adequate charge. We have our mobile applications to assist in this. The businesses continue to benefit if my car is parked in a normal spot and my fellow Model S owners are not inconvienced because I'm too inconsiderate to move my car.

Larry

 

[NoMoGas]

OK, I think in this case we can say it: freeloader! But talk about irrational behavior, this is costing the boss real money. A Tesla owner would not have to pay himself cash money to sit at a Supercharger, but he's certainly paying his employee more than the free electricity is worth, not to mention putting extra miles on the car and cycles on the battery pack. Any way you look at it, it makes no sense. And if I was the guy waiting behind his car at the Supercharger so I could get charged and back on the road to somewhere...well, I'm not an irascible guy, but even I have limits.

Call someone a freeloader then go on and describe how his actions are costing him more then everyone else... yea... this thread has jumped the shark.

Perhaps the boss just came in from a journey to the Inland Empire and had a long drive in the evening so, while at a meeting he sends his assistant to top off his car quickly. Yea, what a douche.

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Ron,

It doesn't hurt the businesses for Model S owners to exercise courtsey and move their cars when they have an adequate charge. We have our mobile applications to assist in this. The businesses continue to benefit if my car is parked in a normal spot and my fellow Model S owners are not inconvienced because I'm too inconsiderate to move my car.

Larry

Is this an SC at a Mall or an HPWC? The latter seems to make more sensce for that application.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that if you feel the Superchargers are overloaded now, wait till next year when there's double the number of Ss on the road, or wait ~4 years and see the 000s of Gen III lining up to use them. My point is that plenty is going to change in the near-medium term; hence such ideas as the McDonalds concept.

McDonalds sucks. That would be the last place I would want to stop and hang-out....but there's plenty of folks who like it and it does offer a solution to the angst up-thread.

I completely agree. I think that Tesla is doing a good job of expanding the Supercharger network, and I hope they will be able to continue to add more as needed to minimize congestion in the future and counteract the effects of a few abusers. Nevertheless, I think that when Gen III production goes into full swing it will be difficult to avoid congestion. Then a few abusers could have a very marked effect on clogging Supercharger stations. It will be at that time in the future when Tesla would be the most likely to implement actions to deal with abusers.

I also share Nigel's feelings about McDonalds. As Elon says, he likes optionality, so its good to have options. I just hope that any relationship that Tesla may have with McDonalds is only used as a last resort.

In contrast, I don't have any reservations regarding any business relationship with Hilton, but I frankly don't understand the need for installing a Supercharger in a hotel when overnight charging is sufficient. A High Power Wall Connector would be more than enough. It is this mention of Superchargers at Hilton hotels that makes me seriously question the credibility of the information that the local store rep was passing on to the original poster.

Larry

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Ron,

It doesn't hurt the businesses for Model S owners to exercise courtsey and move their cars when they have an adequate charge. We have our mobile applications to assist in this. The businesses continue to benefit if my car is parked in a normal spot and my fellow Model S owners are not inconvienced because I'm too inconsiderate to move my car.

Larry

Is this an SC at a Mall or an HPWC? The latter seems to make more sensce for that application.

Jim,

I don't understand your question, or your point.

I was responding to Ron's assertion that Tesla tells the mall host locations that Model Ss will be parked at Superchargers for hours on end to seal the deal. Personally I doubt that. What I think Tesla tells them is that Model S owners are drawn to a mall in droves due to the availability of Superchargers. Then when they are done charging there will be the likihood of them continuing to shop or dine at the mall. It doesn't matter if the Model S is only parked in the Supercharger stall for 30 minutes, there will still be a tendancy for many Model S owners to remain for longer durations. Their courtsey in moving their cars from a Supercharger stall to a normal parking spot doesn't hurt the businesses at the mall.

Larry

 

[vfx]

...
But for every good, there is bad and Tesla is allegedly monitoring what they view as a problem of people who live local to the Supercharger stations charging there instead of at home.

Called that!

December of last year.

At some point in the future even local yokels in Timbuktu will have a Tesla. Then the travel spots will be packed. We have to come up with a term for that. Yokeld?

When the low budge Genlll (Model E) comes out it will be exponential. Those owners are are on a budget and there will be 100,000s of thousands of them.

...a massive expansion of the Supercharger network to include McDonalds...

Called that too.

A Supercharger at every Walgreens, Mc Donald's and Starbucks

That post also called10 units per site.

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Unfortunately, like unlimited data on our phones, there will abuse forcing Tesla to limit usage.

As someone who had his unlimited for life plan pulled by ATT, this bites.

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OK, I think in this case we can say it: freeloader! But talk about irrational behavior, this is costing the boss real money. A Tesla owner would not have to pay himself cash money to sit at a Supercharger, but he's certainly paying his employee more than the free electricity is wort....

It may be about time. The boss might want to do a long drive soon and can't wait for a regular charge. People pay extra to save time waiting in line at all sorts of venues.

 

[aviators99]

Ron,

It doesn't hurt the businesses for Model S owners to exercise courtsey and move their cars when they have an adequate charge. We have our mobile applications to assist in this. The businesses continue to benefit if my car is parked in a normal spot and my fellow Model S owners are not inconvienced because I'm too inconsiderate to move my car.

Larry

Actually it does hurt the business when that happens. It's part of the theory of consumer behavior and marketing 101 (well, maybe 201).

Last night I charged at Fort Myers, at the Gulf Coast Mall. Of course this would have been a non-issue because I was one of two people there, but let's say it was crowded. There is a BBQ place in that mall that looked interesting. It is a sit-down place. There's also a McDonald's. If I went to the BBQ place I would have to leave in the middle of my meal in order to move the car so that someone else could charge. By the time I left and walked to where the car was and went back, the rest of my party would be done eating. So I probably would have chosen McDonald's (to be courteous). Someone else would have gone to the BBQ place and been a little more discourteous. But the BBQ place would have been happy, and the land owner would have made more money in the long run.

My point is not that people should be discourteous. I never said that. I said that Tesla promised the land owners that there would be business at the mall. This problem needs to be solved via technology, and probably by having more cords and parking spots than available charging slots, and a way to switch. The technology needs to support the business model.

 

[dsm363]

Starbucks is the ideal chain for Superchargers. Get coffee and rest for 45min and are not at a sit down meal. Easy to move car.

 

[dsm363]

Tesla should request permission to text people when the charge is done. Not everyone has this capability though.

 

[vfx]

On abuse, I liked range limited idea. 50 miles was suggested but how about a half range limit?

From your home you can only use a SC that is around half your car's range away.

You can call Tesla to "unlock" your car from that limitation for a day when you have some special circumstance.


Even if we "solve" the cheapskate dilemma, there is another problem looming.

Livery and shipping. I can imagine that companies with regular drive routes will see a fuel savings advantage by buying buying a Tesla and using the free charging to significantly reduce costs. With a stripped out Model X a shipping company could set up routes along the SC network and save 10's of thousands over the years. The cheaper the Tesla (how about a used Model E?) the savings increase even more. As for the waiting drivers they could put them to work on other cloud based tasks while filling.