Last month I bought a pre-Highland 2023 Model 3 Performance. It was a showroom demo which had just 19 miles on the odometer. Because I was the first registered owner they classed it as a "new" car and gave me the 15,000 free supercharger miles. I'm retired and 15,000 miles is probably close on two years' motoring for me! So my questions is - is there any research which shows regular rapid charging is detrimental to battery health? I will still do a charge at home at least once a month to keep me on the right side of the Intelligent Octopus rules but otherwise I might as well use the free fuel unless it's going to shorten the battery life or reduce its capacity unduly. The car is Shanghai-built and I presume has NCA batteries.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Supercharging any threat to battery life?
- Thread starter G4WFT
- Start date
I hear conflicting reports on this, nothing concrete though,
I suspect it is very difficult to get very accurate data on this as any study etc would not be controlled I.e. the only data you can get is from cars on the road and every person will have treated their car differently/different environments etc etc.
Assuming you have RWD which is LFP battery, I believe the guidance is keep the charge between 20 - 80% and charge once a week to 100%, I suspect this would minimize the effects of supercharging but I am only guessing.
I read as much as I could early on and worried about it for a few weeks, then I realized it probably isnt worth the worry for unknown benefit. Now I just enjoy the car and make sure it works for me rather than compromising.
I suspect it is very difficult to get very accurate data on this as any study etc would not be controlled I.e. the only data you can get is from cars on the road and every person will have treated their car differently/different environments etc etc.
Assuming you have RWD which is LFP battery, I believe the guidance is keep the charge between 20 - 80% and charge once a week to 100%, I suspect this would minimize the effects of supercharging but I am only guessing.
I read as much as I could early on and worried about it for a few weeks, then I realized it probably isnt worth the worry for unknown benefit. Now I just enjoy the car and make sure it works for me rather than compromising.
Even if it does damage it a bit, at 7,500 miles a year the car will probably still see you out.
My 2021 Model 3 has been regularly filled to 100%, discharged to below 10%, and Supercharged on the motorway, and still has 321 miles full range showing.
My 2021 Model 3 has been regularly filled to 100%, discharged to below 10%, and Supercharged on the motorway, and still has 321 miles full range showing.
Jason71
Well-Known Member
So are you planning to actually drive to a supercharger sit and wait while the car charges then drive home just to to use up the miles?
I know you are retired but given a 20-90% home change costs about £3.50 is that really the best use of your time? have you considered salsa classes?
also 15k free miles is not 15k actually real world miles
15k free miles is more than 15k real world miles in M3. When I had free miles I got significantly more than they calculated I'd used after each SuC, which I think is based on approx. 3mpkWh.
I agree with the other comments though, its a big use of time if you're just going to sit in the car whilst it charges for free, unless you've a long list of 30 minutes episodes from a box set you want to watch through whilst you're charging I guess. You'll only get decent charge speed if you precondition before arriving at the SuC and that takes 15-20 mins at least, so if you live nearby you'll not see high charging speeds.
I agree with the other comments though, its a big use of time if you're just going to sit in the car whilst it charges for free, unless you've a long list of 30 minutes episodes from a box set you want to watch through whilst you're charging I guess. You'll only get decent charge speed if you precondition before arriving at the SuC and that takes 15-20 mins at least, so if you live nearby you'll not see high charging speeds.
MrBadger
Badger out
When we first got our Model 3 nearly 5 years ago, for the first few months we could not charge at home even with the UMC, so with the then poor local infrastructure combined with some free supercharger miles the car was weekly driven to the local supercharger and charged, but never brimmed.
Take it from someone also with no time commitments that even though it was only 20-25 minutes on charge, you soon bore of killing time at a supercharger site.
Getting the ability to charge at home, albeit slowly, really was an epiphany, no matter how many times I could try to convince myself that the drive there and back was just testing autopilot updates
As for damage to battery. It was only for 2-3 months, but 5 years later our max range is not out of the ordinary for similar cars in TeslaFi fleet.
Honestly wouldn't worry. My M3 has done 40k miles, regularly charged to 100% for long drives, lots of SC use, I'm seeing 3% degradation.
No one seemed to worry about their mpg/range changing by 3% or the power reduced from an aging combustion engine.....
No one seemed to worry about their mpg/range changing by 3% or the power reduced from an aging combustion engine.....
It's a good point. We have three superchargers at 8 miles, 10 miles and 13 miles roughly. The Northampton SC, at 13 miles, is next to a retail park so there is actually something to do. I don't aim to make journeys purely to charge, though doing so occasionally doesn't bother me, but rather make sure I charge the car whenever we are within reasonable range.
Regarding the point about how many free miles you actually get, the last charge I did put in 50kWh and they deducted 155 miles from the free miles, so near enough 3 miles per kWh. I actually get more than that from a kWh on average so doesn't that mean I'm likely to get more than 15,000?
Salsa classes? No thanks, I'd rather sit and watch the car charging!
akenham
M3P 2024
One of our resident battery experts said this recently about supercharging (scroll down the post to “lithium plating”):
The longer answer is that fast DC charging is a bit worse than slow AC charging, however a much larger difference comes from whether your car sits at higher states of charge on average -
calendar aging. Even this isn’t enough difference to sweat it - charge the amount you require to use and enjoy it by the most convenient method.
Personally I’d treat the supercharging as a nice bonus making all my road trips free
Post in thread 'Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells'https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/7842332/The longer answer is that fast DC charging is a bit worse than slow AC charging, however a much larger difference comes from whether your car sits at higher states of charge on average -
calendar aging. Even this isn’t enough difference to sweat it - charge the amount you require to use and enjoy it by the most convenient method.
Personally I’d treat the supercharging as a nice bonus making all my road trips free
The charging rate isnt the enemy of current battery technology, heat is. Tesla have what i would describe as probably the very best thermal management system on any battery electric car in the world, so from that perspective you need not worry.
When charging more heat is generated when the BMS is under pressure to distribute the electrons to the cells that need it - so once you get over the 80% ish mark the charging rate slows down and the BMS is constantly looking at each battery module to determine where it can squeeze the extra in, so If you charge to 80% on a supercharger and if you really want to top off the charge to something a little higher then do that with your home charger - it also helps you stay within the protocols of intelligent Octopus - as your using the system too.
My mileage per year is super low and i don't even have a 7kw charger, I've used the Granny charger for probably 95% of all charging and superchargers only after a long run and I've kept my 2020 M3P at 90% like forever (Tesla keep changing their mind about 80 or 90% charging)
My car used to show 296 miles at 100% - it now shows 295 but the car has only covered 11000 in total, i put my battery degradation at virtually nil and apportion that to the prolific use of the Granny charger - which is a trickle charge at 2kwhrs for a 75Kwhr battery.
@Jason71, Your clearly not retired, we have bugger all to occupy our time, everything is done if and when we feel like it, nothing else more important than maybe taking a flask, go to a charger, top up, have a chat with other owners - its a trip - and we all like a freebie.
Have you not noticed our days start and end at different times to those who go to work?, we venture out after 10.00hrs - so no morning rush hour or schools traffic, we potter about, go to the pub, eat out at lunchtime, a 2 minute job is the only job we will do in an entire day - and back in home by 1600hrs.
My "Highlight" of each week is going to the shooting club every Wednesday and Friday morning, more talking than shooting to be honest and mainly all retired folk
When charging more heat is generated when the BMS is under pressure to distribute the electrons to the cells that need it - so once you get over the 80% ish mark the charging rate slows down and the BMS is constantly looking at each battery module to determine where it can squeeze the extra in, so If you charge to 80% on a supercharger and if you really want to top off the charge to something a little higher then do that with your home charger - it also helps you stay within the protocols of intelligent Octopus - as your using the system too.
My mileage per year is super low and i don't even have a 7kw charger, I've used the Granny charger for probably 95% of all charging and superchargers only after a long run and I've kept my 2020 M3P at 90% like forever (Tesla keep changing their mind about 80 or 90% charging)
My car used to show 296 miles at 100% - it now shows 295 but the car has only covered 11000 in total, i put my battery degradation at virtually nil and apportion that to the prolific use of the Granny charger - which is a trickle charge at 2kwhrs for a 75Kwhr battery.
@Jason71, Your clearly not retired, we have bugger all to occupy our time, everything is done if and when we feel like it, nothing else more important than maybe taking a flask, go to a charger, top up, have a chat with other owners - its a trip - and we all like a freebie.
Have you not noticed our days start and end at different times to those who go to work?, we venture out after 10.00hrs - so no morning rush hour or schools traffic, we potter about, go to the pub, eat out at lunchtime, a 2 minute job is the only job we will do in an entire day - and back in home by 1600hrs.
My "Highlight" of each week is going to the shooting club every Wednesday and Friday morning, more talking than shooting to be honest and mainly all retired folk
Well said that man, couldn't have put it better if I'd tried. We've sat and done a couple of crosswords while charging at a SC!@Jason71, Your clearly not retired, we have bugger all to occupy our time, everything is done if and when we feel like it, nothing else more important than maybe taking a flask, go to a charger, top up, have a chat with other owners - its a trip - and we all like a freebie.
Have you not noticed our days start and end at different times to those who go to work?, we venture out after 10.00hrs - so no morning rush hour or schools traffic, we potter about, go to the pub, eat out at lunchtime, a 2 minute job is the only job we will do in an entire day - and back in home by 1600hrs.
My "Highlight" of each week is going to the shooting club every Wednesday and Friday morning, more talking than shooting to be honest and mainly all retired folk
Everything I've read has been a similar "It's a little bit worse, but nothing to worry about". AC charging after several years might show slightly more wear, but we're talking 92% vs 90%.
I had spare SuC miles from a referral, the thing is, home charging (particularly off peak) is both cheap and convenient. For a 10%-> 95% charge, you're looking at £4.50 on IO, it's simply not worth the hassle to drive to a supercharger and wait for it to charge.
I had spare SuC miles from a referral, the thing is, home charging (particularly off peak) is both cheap and convenient. For a 10%-> 95% charge, you're looking at £4.50 on IO, it's simply not worth the hassle to drive to a supercharger and wait for it to charge.
MrBadger
Badger out
Especially with the cost of a coffee at many a supercharger site these days
Free supercharging was far from net free and I wasn’t going to break out the thermos - home brew coffee really doesn’t travel especially well, even when compared to the likes of Starbucks.
Especially with the cost of a coffee at many a supercharger site these days
Free supercharging was far from net free and I wasn’t going to break out the thermos - home brew coffee really doesn’t travel especially well, even when compared to the likes of Starbucks.
Attachments
Lance From Jax
Member
I mean Tesla recommends charging to 100% at least once a week.
In the OPs situation i would not sit at the supercharger waiting for it to get to 100%.
Interestingly, Tesla's recommendation for charging seems to have completely disappeared out the manual, unless I am being blind!!
akenham
M3P 2024
I can’t see it - it just refers you to the daily and trip sections of the charge limit bar which they can presumably vary per type of car / battery / how they’re feeling.
PS Like others, my understanding is that LFP should be 100% charged sometimes else the BMS can get confused and become over cautious (flat mid range voltage change with charge level) but you don’t need 100% every time and calendar aging is still the primary degradation mechanism. There’s no need to over index on having a higher state of charge than you need all of the time. Search for threads from aakee and lfp if you enjoy battery nerdery else don’t worry about it and carry on.
PS Like others, my understanding is that LFP should be 100% charged sometimes else the BMS can get confused and become over cautious (flat mid range voltage change with charge level) but you don’t need 100% every time and calendar aging is still the primary degradation mechanism. There’s no need to over index on having a higher state of charge than you need all of the time. Search for threads from aakee and lfp if you enjoy battery nerdery else don’t worry about it and carry on.
There's a study on this - Update: Scientists Reveal how EV Fast Charging Impacts Battery Health
The TLDR; "our analysis of more than 160,000 data points found that there was no statistically significant difference in range degradation between fast charging more than 70% of the time and fast charging less than 30% of the time"
The TLDR; "our analysis of more than 160,000 data points found that there was no statistically significant difference in range degradation between fast charging more than 70% of the time and fast charging less than 30% of the time"
Would be interesting to see the full numbers as when someone split the data categorically like this it clearly points towards some skewed distribution.
Similar threads
